Building For Honor - Y Vi'gor?
By Corle Huffman

Vi’gor in Cat Form is equal parts 3 armor and 3 resist coupled with a huge 9 health—basically a powerhouse defensively. His Leader of the Pack ability let’s everybody in the party heal when they score crits, and this is extremely effective at keeping Vi’gor alive and in the middle of the fight.

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80 Horde Priest - Tichondrius
80 Alliance Rogue - Icecrown

One thing I hate about Savin: (next to everyone thinking they found a great deck using him)

You are forcing yourself to stand where he stands if you want to use him to his fullest. Especially in a Vi'Gor team this can easilly be abused by your opponent. Therefore not always getting those 6 dice you want.

 

This team really seems to have a weakness in assuming very high dice totals while a smart opponent will keep away from Vi'Gor. Not giving stealth at least and probably not Jaina's +1 dice too.

Speaking of Jaina, it is a great risk putting her next to Vi'Gor while he is on the hunt. She can easilly be pummeled by a lot of enemies in the current meta and she needs protection. Having her as a +1 dmg totem that walks around for Vi'Gor will certainly have her killed.

And I'm not evening mentioning having an enemy bulwark against you. It's cool you crit so much, but that will soon mean you have a near unkillable wall facing you.

 

I really have great doubts about this team as the matchup with Jaina and Savin feels a bit forced because 'they rock so much in the current meta'. I am sure something better can be made using Vi'gor.

Is this party really superior to this variant?

Vi'gor Darkbreeze
- Cat Form
- Boots of Utter Darkness

Tinker Timbletin
- Mana Potion
- Arcane Flux
- Spellsteal

Parvink
- Bulwark of Azzinoth
- Red Havoc Boots
- Sunder Armor
- Mortal Strike

Parvink can Sunder Armor enemies Bulwark, she has Interfere for Prophet Velen, she bringt Bulwark+RHB as the Lady Vashj Killer. Due to her low attack compared to Savin (who is never attacking) she get's a use out of Leader of the Pack.

And Tinker is for sure not worse than Lady Jaina, because I really doubt that Vi'gor will profit often from her +1 dice. Thanks to spellsteal he also brings an option against Vashj (Lycanthropy, Arcane Flux) and IceBlock to the table. And he also attacks for 1 tick - without ticking up another Mini!

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News, Warbands, Discussions - my WoW Minis Blog [german]: http://wowminiaturesgame.blogspot.com

I myself rather succesfully tested on the Dutch Nationals:

Vi'gor Darkbreeze
- Cat Form
- Mark of the Wild (because Boots are for people who can't get stealth normally anyway)

Parvink
- Sunder Armor
- Mortal Strike
- Break through

Dralor
- Evasion
- Expose Armor
- Distract
- Sinister Strike

 

Dralor brings exactly what Jaina brings, but is a lot less squishy and also packs Expose. Also, sinister strike is a great ABC vs low armor targets with Dralor. A stealthed Dralor doing a 5 dice attack, then a 3 dice attack both having +1 if they do damage is really awesomesauce and comes close to Vi'gor himself. Ready on a crit is also great of course.

Parvink packs anti Bulwark and Boots of the Crimson Hawk with Sunder, anti rest of equipment with a crit as well as forcing casters to either take a tick extra or move somewhere they don't want to go. Breakthrough to break enemy lines and setups as well as get the ones they want at the rear forward (especially if played on the same tick with distract against an enemy that can't act that tick)

Synergy enough in the team:
- all 2 tick attacks
- all physical
- 2 armor reduction ABC's
- 2 stealthers
- Mark of the Wild to boost offensive and defensive capabilities.
- with 3/3/9 2/3/7 and 3/2/9 it is a very tough team with no obvious weakest target as well.

I like your build, but I really need Arcane Flux for Vi'gor...

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News, Warbands, Discussions - my WoW Minis Blog [german]: http://wowminiaturesgame.blogspot.com

Quick Reflexes vs Polymorph. Does this even work? Poly takes away your abilities, including the one to react. Or can you play QR in reaction to Poly, which is before the character would get ticked up - before QR's trigger condition.

2807168:

Quick Reflexes vs Polymorph. Does this even work? Poly takes away your abilities, including the one to react. Or can you play QR in reaction to Poly, which is before the character would get ticked up - before QR's trigger condition.

There is actually a window for you to play QR if I'm not mistaken. I won't bother stating the specifics in the rulebook unless you need it. ^_^

2593571:

Is this party really superior to this variant?

Vi'gor Darkbreeze
- Cat Form
- Boots of Utter Darkness

Tinker Timbletin
- Mana Potion
- Arcane Flux
- Spellsteal

Parvink
- Bulwark of Azzinoth
- Red Havoc Boots
- Sunder Armor
- Mortal Strike

Parvink can Sunder Armor enemies Bulwark, she has Interfere for Prophet Velen, she bringt Bulwark+RHB as the Lady Vashj Killer. Due to her low attack compared to Savin (who is never attacking) she get's a use out of Leader of the Pack.

And Tinker is for sure not worse than Lady Jaina, because I really doubt that Vi'gor will profit often from her +1 dice. Thanks to spellsteal he also brings an option against Vashj (Lycanthropy, Arcane Flux) and IceBlock to the table. And he also attacks for 1 tick - without ticking up another Mini!

With Jaina you can attack without triggering Ice Block (and Stealth does the same thing), so Spellsteal doesn't give you anything over the Jaina version. Tinker's attack does not cost 1, you need to crit for that which is odds of slightly less than 2/3 with Flux. Parvink is also inferior as a tank, compared to Savin at 3/3/8. You lose out to magic attacks, so you're weaker against Mortimers, Vashj (which can choose to attack your weakest defense) and Velen (magic is main DPS).

As for Jaina being Legendary, she'll likely crit 57% of the time, so she gets 0.57 health back each tick. Tinker risks being one-shotted before getting to heal back, but Jaina has more health.

Even then I'd like to try out the following variant:

Vi'gor
Boots of Utter Darkness
Cat Form

Savin
Bulwark
Cleanse
Quick Reflexes
Flash of Light

Tinker
Arcane Flux
Frost Nova
Flamestrike (i.e. Ice Block insurance... could be Mana Potion though)

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"The beatings will continue until morale has improved."
- Standard corporate management technique

2593571:

I like your build, but I really need Arcane Flux for Vi'gor...

 

My experience with this is.. double..

 

I playtested my team quite a bit and never had a problem critting, mostly because of the large amount of attacks all 3 characters do.

But when I played it on the Dutch Nationals I had a grand total of 5 crits over the entire tournament, only one for Vi'Gor which then got a botched second attack (0 successes). How I wished I had Flux there, but in the large number of playtests I did I actually concluded I didn't really need it and break the idea of the 3 melee characters hunting the enemy down that seemed quite succesful.

 

Shame I can't come to the DMF Amsterdam (prior engagement) or I could have tried the build some more. Still trying to convince one of the other players to give it a try ;-)

Why are people worried about ice block?  Vigor tears apart any mage silly enough to waste space on the react.

I respect your playing experience, but mathematics is what counts for me:
Let's assume Vi'gor attacks always with 5 dice: his probability for at least one crit is 1-0.9^5=41% per attack. With arcane flux his crit probability increases to 65%. If a game lasts 20 ticks, and allows Vi'gor eight regular attacks in that time, then arcane flux leads to 24% (65-41) additional attacks (1.9 attacks) due to arcane flux. This is about 9.6 additional dice, which is approximately 6.7 hits. Against a good defense (3 Armor) this means 1.9*3 defensive dice thrown = 5.7 dice. This means average blocked hits = 5.7*0.7 = 4. Over the course of the game arcane flux therefore results in 2.7 additional damage. That is really not much.

Now compare this to Blessing of Might. With 5 dice, Vi'gor usually only hits 3.5. So with 8 attacks this means he gets to reroll 12 dice. BoM grants enough rerolls for this (8*2=16 dice!). 12*0.7=8.4 additional hits. This must not be damage, but the opponent does not get the chance to block these additional hits. Not counted all the additional rerolls Vi'gor would get for the second attack in 41% of the attacks!

Maybe it is even better to take Mark of the Wild with you instead of the boots... lets assume only 4 dice. With 4 dice you usually score 4*0.7=2.8 hits. So you get over the course of the game 1.2*8=9.6 misses. MotW grants you 8 rerolls. Fair enough. 9.6*0.7= 6.7 hits. But it will also save some health.

I am a bit shocked that I am writing about mathematics here but... maybe you're right and Arcane Flux is nice, but not really necessary...

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News, Warbands, Discussions - my WoW Minis Blog [german]: http://wowminiaturesgame.blogspot.com

2160844:

With Jaina you can attack without triggering Ice Block (and Stealth does the same thing), so Spellsteal doesn't give you anything over the Jaina version. Tinker's attack does not cost 1, you need to crit for that which is odds of slightly less than 2/3 with Flux. Parvink is also inferior as a tank, compared to Savin at 3/3/8. You lose out to magic attacks, so you're weaker against Mortimers, Vashj (which can choose to attack your weakest defense) and Velen (magic is main DPS).

As for Jaina being Legendary, she'll likely crit 57% of the time, so she gets 0.57 health back each tick. Tinker risks being one-shotted before getting to heal back, but Jaina has more health.

Even then I'd like to try out the following variant:

Vi'gor
Boots of Utter Darkness
Cat Form

Savin
Bulwark
Cleanse
Quick Reflexes
Flash of Light

Tinker
Arcane Flux
Frost Nova
Flamestrike (i.e. Ice Block insurance... could be Mana Potion though)

Return of the Frost Lock, eh?

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Sarcastic remarks should come in a different color. Then the forums would be more interesting to look at.

You're forgetting a few things. Arcane Flux increases your average number of hits per attack, due to the correlation between an higher number of hits and the odds of critting. I think I remember that this increased the expected number of hits on 5 dice from 3.5 to something like 3.64, though I don't remember the exact number and it's a somewhat complex set of calculations that I don't have time to get into right now.

(Also, the interaction between Flux and Blessing of Might, if you use both, is a bit complex on this front since you don't get your BoM rerolls on the Flux reroll. It would be interesting to figure out the proper reroll strategy based on how many hits, and crits, you get pre-Flux.)

It also can be used on Jaina, which is not the case of Blessing of Might. And Jaina attacks every tick, roughly. You could also use it on Savin late game for a burst damage increase, though to be fair you can do that with BoM too.

You also get an increase in the amount of crit healing on Vi'gor thanks to Flux which is better than what you get from Blessing of Might.

Finally, there's also the fact that Flux will increase your odds of critting, and thus do *burst* damage, which is relevant. Average over time is important, but sometimes you're more interested in being able to do the big crucial play, and Flux will give you better odds of doing two attacks with Vi'gor and do more damage *now*.

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"The beatings will continue until morale has improved."
- Standard corporate management technique

To'lor

I tried running something similar with Horde just for fun.

Thangal
Boots of Utter Darkness
Cat Form
Starfire
Tranquility

Warchief Thrall
Chain Heal
Purge
Snowsong

Morganis Blackvein
Arcane Flux
Mana Potion

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... Shawn Ely

1205778:

2160844:

With Jaina you can attack without triggering Ice Block (and Stealth does the same thing), so Spellsteal doesn't give you anything over the Jaina version. Tinker's attack does not cost 1, you need to crit for that which is odds of slightly less than 2/3 with Flux. Parvink is also inferior as a tank, compared to Savin at 3/3/8. You lose out to magic attacks, so you're weaker against Mortimers, Vashj (which can choose to attack your weakest defense) and Velen (magic is main DPS).

As for Jaina being Legendary, she'll likely crit 57% of the time, so she gets 0.57 health back each tick. Tinker risks being one-shotted before getting to heal back, but Jaina has more health.

Even then I'd like to try out the following variant:

Vi'gor
Boots of Utter Darkness
Cat Form

Savin
Bulwark
Cleanse
Quick Reflexes
Flash of Light

Tinker
Arcane Flux
Frost Nova
Flamestrike (i.e. Ice Block insurance... could be Mana Potion though)

Return of the Frost Lock, eh?

Well I figure with Savin and Vi'gor you're already trying to get in close, and in close quarters Tinker + Frost lock is less risky than Jaina, though it does hit your Vi'gor DPS a bit.

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"The beatings will continue until morale has improved."
- Standard corporate management technique