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San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

Last post 08-18-2008, 10:56 AM by TehHuntre. 36 replies.
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  •  07-25-2008, 5:13 PM 1323113

    San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Fellow tactical minis gamers--Let it begin!!!

    Sorry for the quickness and sloppiness of this post, I don't have time to edit or draft. It's comic con weekend! Special thanks to Justin for running the demo and answering a billion minute tactical hypotheticals.

    Some of you already know me for my awkwardly outspokenness on the Mechwarrior forums. (If I don't like something, you will hear about it: I'm no kiss-a%s, folks). I won a national championship with that game, and 2nd and 3rd two years at worlds. I've already thrown down the gauntlet saying I'll win the world championships with this game. :> So, as I pepper words on tactics and strats and depth of this game, I don't think i'm just blowing smoke.

    (Yes, Tehhunter, I'll tell you the juice about pets... later. :> )

    I apologize if my memory is faulty... I'm sure i'll get a stat or six wrong-- I was trying to process the game; rules; map; terrain; vps; win, duh!; comic con noise; talk with the creator, Justin; calm my nerves; and memorize all twelve cards.

    Also, I apologize if these are already listed. If so, correct any mistakes I made please. I'll try to demarcate my guesses with ?'s. Remember this is all on memory, I didn't write anything down.

    Gorebelly-- 9 life; 3? Physical armor; 1 Resist armor; Attack = 3 ticks, 1 range, 6 dice, crit +1 damage

    His nine health makes him a beast--but maybe only in demo. He's a bit 1 dimensional--but that one dimension is raw power. If the enemy is not packing magical attacks, gorebelly will make them pay in blood--if they are, gorebelly may not last long. This may have more to do with it being a demo game though. His two cards were:

    Charge-- 0, 1tick? Add +1 move to this figure this turn. (maybe it has to have an enemy in range). When it makes an attack this turn, the target must add 1 tick to his clock.

    I forget the second card. It wasn't used.

    Interlude: Ok, I'm going to get into it here--before I talk about this card. If you are a tactical gamer, you can already see it from that card... The tactics are going to be awesome. We were playing 11pts vs 11pts... so we both needed 11vps to win. Killing is worth 4 pts; Vp space, next to or on it, at end of turn 5 or 10, is worth 1 pt/per character. There you have it--for this demo 2 kills and 3 vps collected wins the game. You NEED those vp squares--3 of them total from turns 5 and 10. You have to mix it up quickly. (action bar cards had no vp value, not sure if they will later, but I didn't notice a stat for it--their resource was tick dependent).

    Back to charge: So, with charge, gorebelly can die and respawn (two ticks) and then charge right to the vp. So don't be standing on it when gorebelly respawns. No joke. He likes swining that axe.

    Charge adds a tick to the defender also. Sounds like 'Meh,' but considering the game is ALL about time/tick/timing management, adding a click to something is huge. More than huge. Off the top of my head: First, it can break combos, forcing an enemy to use one character before the other. Second, it means that it is quite possible to get a 2nd attack in before the defender is able to be used, all because of that extra tick. If this is tactically too fast, just ask. Third, if they are waiting on a turn 10 use of their action card, (so they can use it again right away) Charge pushes their clock to 1... sucks hard for them.

    All that and +1 move. Huge! I like charge.

    Oh, I remember the second card: Execute. 1tick? range 1. if target has 2 health or less, it is destroyed.

    I don't remember the 'tags' for ability cards, but they function something like this: React, modify, action. These are my terms. Action takes the place of your regular action. Modify modifies an action. React, is, um, well, reacting to an action against you. :-)

    Charge was a modify, as it modifies your action. Your action was to swing your axe of pain. Execute is an action. If you use it, you don't get to swing said axe of super-pain. The benefit was that execute costs 1 tick... swinging axe of 'tylenols-not-going-to-help-you' pain costs three. The longer the game went, the more I fretted over that axe.

    Lotherin: 6 health; 1 p.armor; 2 r.amor; attack 2 ticks, 2 range, 4 dice Crit = holy nova. +1 damage to all enemy figures adjacent to Loth, +1 heal to all friendly figures adjacent to Loth.

    Nice crit, but very unreliable--esp with only 4 attack dice. I can't remember what the special 'box' ability was--I want to say it was heal. (because Loth healed during the game) but that might have been from an action card.

    Loth's stats left something to be lacking, imo. For a 2v2 game, having a 'support' character seemed a little unbalanced. Esp. as I cornered and killed my opponent's gorebelly so quickly. Loth might have worked better if psychic scream was utilized.

    Psychic Scream: (might have been called mind blast): 1 tick? range 2? 7 attack. All hits, after armor, equal no damage, but you can move their figure that many spaces away from Loth. Huge! When I asked for some more on that, Justin made it appear that the controller of PScream got to move the figure away from Loth UP to the number of 'net' hits. (I stopped our game to ask, so it was quick).So, as I see it, that pretty much means half the board. One basically just can't move the enemy behind Loth. This took the place of his attack (an action)... I hope.

    Heal: I think. I don't remember much, but I think it heals for 4 dice. It was used, and worked well for my opponent. I think low-tick cost healing will be very significant in this game in 3v3 and larger.

    Now, my dudes!

    We've all seen Vindicator Hodoon. http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/wowminis/en/news/default.aspx?aid=4401

    I believe his stats were unchanged. I talked to Justin about how balanced I thought this figure was in its niche. As a 'risky' wargamer, he's exactly what I didn't want to see in the set (tactically speaking). He's a defensive house, whose offensive abilities are chaotic (he has to crit to be worthwhile, imo. And with only 4 dice...hmm). I would never want to use him (I like offense) but I never want to fight him either--because he's defensivly super solid, no real weakness. If he had a weakness it is from heavy long range magic attacks, but then again, he can pack heal, which is more tick efficient than heavy long range magic attacks.

    Two tactial examples: Gorebelly steps up and deals his full seven damage... Hodoon blocks 3 or 4 of it... takes 3 or 4. Now, gorebelly spent 3 ticks, hodoon can spend three to attack back... but if he does so, gorebelly will 'probably' get to go next. Hodoon can, instead, spend two ticks to heal... and still get to attack before gorebelly. (not that his regular attack hurts gorebelly, but hey). This is even more true about range attacks. Hodoon takes a ton, from a 3 tick heavy long range attack... then moves 2, heals (2 tick) and gets to move and attack again before the heavy long range magic guy goes again. (and if Hodoon crits...he just might one-shot the caster. You see my point: he's solid). You don't want to waste you attacks on him, but you can't leave him alone either.

    So, adding in some heal and cards to make his damage better, and its a recipe for versatility.

    Flash Heal: 2ticks? range? 4dice. Don't know if this was an action or a modify... but I think it was his action. I didn't use it. The power of it, however, seems to come from the fact that you took a tank that can heal. Armor and healing, and not having to take another healer seems strong. Especially if you are interested in keeping your damage output up. I imagine Hodoon will see action in 3v3 games and smaller: maybe not as much as the game scales up.

    Hammer of Wrath: 2 ticks? 2 range? 5 magic dice. crit +1? Action. Yeah, this hurts gorebelly. Add in ruby's six attack fireball, and a free same turn fire blast and gorebelly is a pile of ashes. Loth is not a happy camper at that point. Hodoon just keeps looking better and better. He just has to stay away from P.Scream (and the like) and he's in business. His box ability is decent, too... especially in an all paladin army. :-) Ruby stood way back in my game, she wasn't going to rely on +1 p.armor to help her out.

    Ruby: 5 health; 1 p.armor; 3 r.armor: Attack 3 ticks, 3 range, 6 dice. Crit = +1 damage.

    Pretty straightforward. Move ruby, adjust los, pick up dice, burn enemy. But wait, there's more.

    Fire blast: I honestly can't remember if this costs 0 ticks or 2. range 2? It modifies the action. 3 dice, crit +1. Rule to know (tm): You can move before or after you attack. With fire blast you can do even more. Example: You can regular attack, move and then fireblast something else (or same) all in one turn. (I think--I hit the same target). I felt this card was very strong. Basically it means that ruby can move and do 11 damage in one turn. Still, she better be able to, she has 5 life and no armor to speak of. And she has to play around terrain.

    Ice barrior: This was the only react card we used. You play it when you are targeted by an attack. It cost ruby 1 tick, and prevented the next two damage she would take. Of course, since I had it, I would have used it (if ruby was attacked) but, in general I think the tick cost made it a problem. Ruby going off-line for another turn, especially in small games, is a problem. I can imagine there would be better action cards for her. This card seems more like a get-out-of-jail card, I made a huge mistake, kind of recovery action card. Not my normal cup of earl grey.

    There you have it. I hope this is new info and not just writing in vain.

    Oh, there will be talent specific cards.

    There will be pets. (Tehhunter is still waiting, I know).

    Maybe I should leave that for another post? Whadda think?

    Pet death gives opponents zero vps. How nice is that?

    Pets are action cards. So, they will replace one of your 'abilities.' Pets have a seperate clock. They are summoed with the same tick/clock number as the Hunter/warlock/etc. So, first turn: Hunter moves 2 and summons. If it costs 3 ticks, you'd move hunter to tick 4. Pet would be summoned with its clock at tick 4.

    If they die they can be resummoned... after the card has become 'ready.' (after turn ten)

    They are summoned adjacent to the master. (iirc)

    If the character dies. The pet dies. (ouch)

    I believe pets will be equally strong as characters--which is huge. This is a guess trying to figure out how sealed would work. You don't want pets to be worthless space in sealed... so i guess they also function as actual monsters--with full character stats. We know there is a voidwalker monster. Do we? And a voidwalker pet. Do we? I doubt there would be different 'character' cards--that could mess-up sealed. If the backs of ALL cards are the same. You could put the summon cost on the front... and turn the character card face down, using it as an action card. Make sense? Seems like it would save a bit on printing, and open more space in the set. But, that's all just a guess. And frankly, as I was writing it, I began to doubt it.

    Thoughts? Questions? I can always go back and ask them directly.

    -c

  •  07-25-2008, 9:56 PM 1323665 in reply to 1323113

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Think I missed this during all my reading, but - Just say there are 4 figures (Both yours and your opponents) all clocked to Activate on the same phase, how do you work out the order in which they act?

    I had my own simple answer, but Id like to hear the official ruling.

  •  07-25-2008, 11:32 PM 1323695 in reply to 1323665

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Thanks for asking. I know my above post was very non-linear. I just don't know what the community knows and what they don't--so I just jumped into the talking. :-)

    For the demo game (and probably the real game):

    We rolled to see who went first. Then, after I moved a figure (and added a tick--basically a wait order), she moved a figure (and added a tick). Then I moved 2nd figure (tick), then she moved 2nd figure (tick). Then we set game clock to two. Since she moved the last figure, I'm up. And I can choose either of my two characters.

    So, whoever went last, it is the other players turn to move.

    Let's say it's turn 3:

    You move Larry and swing... putting him (let's say on tick 6)

    I move gorebelly and swing... putting him on tick 6. I kill Larry. Larry adds two clicks (now 8) and sits by the spirithealer.

    You move Bob and swing... putting him also on tick 6.

    I move Lotherin and cast a spell and put him (say) on tick 8.

    Now, turn six rolls around. Even through before Gorebelly went before Bob, now Bob will go first because the last character to move was Lotherin. Ditto turn 8. As gorebelly went last... Bob will go before Lotherin.

    I hope that makes sense--I just finished an essay for grad school and my brain is fried.

    -c

     

    Assuming our figures are on the same ticks I will go next.

  •  07-25-2008, 11:35 PM 1323696 in reply to 1323695

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Scratch that last line. It was supposed to be deleted.

    Also, this is really easy to 'see' when you have the figures in hand.  

    The game plays unbelievable fluid.

    -c

  •  07-26-2008, 1:05 AM 1323719 in reply to 1323696

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Its real late and I have to go to work in the morning (which, btw, means I'll be all over these boards tomorrow), so I'm going to make this quick.

    Thanks Corle, for all this.  I think its all done clearly enough to understand and has filled in many gaps in my game knowledge.  Tomorrow I'll have questions.

    More importantly, I'll see you at worlds, you'll know its me because I'll be the one going home with that BIG check >|

  •  07-26-2008, 2:38 AM 1323733 in reply to 1323113

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Interesting post.

    I feel that Hodoon and Gorebelly will have very different roles. Gorebelly is something of a centrepiece figure. He's impossible to ignore thanks to his big attack and taunt and his position will dictate the course of the battle (even in 5v5).

    Hodoon is a fraction harder to kill than Gorebelly, but really doesn't have anywhere near the damage output. To realise Hodoon's hefty 6 honor you'll have to milk Devotion Aura pretty hard. That's why I think Hodoon is a centrepiece's best friend. He follows behind, combining the armor buff with its natural complement, healing. His job is to keep your main man swinging for as long as possible. His potency will be maximised alongside an epic character, particularly one with decent resist, as his aura and heals will translate into a big health increase.

    A Mini Journey
  •  07-26-2008, 6:17 AM 1323857 in reply to 1323113

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Great post Corle! Thanks for taking the time.

  •  07-26-2008, 7:59 AM 1324018 in reply to 1323113

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Wait a minute... I think I know this guy... and I know he's serious about the world championship. The gauntlet was thrown down just about a week ago I think. Oh boy.

    Anyways, my question would be about mini tournaments and sealed play. Any hints on those two topics from comic con?

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  •  07-26-2008, 9:46 AM 1324229 in reply to 1324018

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    So basically, you always alternate turns between sides if there are ever figures activating simultaneously?

  •  07-26-2008, 10:30 AM 1324329 in reply to 1324229

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    1959338:

    So basically, you always alternate turns between sides if there are ever figures activating simultaneously?



    Yeah, the rule seems to be 'alternate if possible'. Otherwise there'd be too much to track. You'd need to know which of the 10 guys who each waited on turn 1 acted first.
    It increases the value of moving a guy to the same tick that two opposing minis already share, as you can 'break' the combo.

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  •  07-26-2008, 11:48 AM 1324576 in reply to 1323113

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    899489:
    (Yes, Tehhunter, I'll tell you the juice about pets... later. :> )

    Thank You!

    Gorebelly-- 9 life; 3? Physical armor; 1 Resist armor; Attack = 3 ticks, 1 range, 6 dice, crit +1 damage

    You can remove the ? for the 3 P armor, that is accurate.

    Charge-- 0, 1tick? Add +1 move to this figure this turn. (maybe it has to have an enemy in range). When it makes an attack this turn, the target must add 1 tick to his clock.

    I'm confused about this "0, 1 tick?".  Charge has a 0 in the time cost spot, so if you were just guessing a=either 0 or 1, I can say its a 0.

    You NEED those vp squares--3 of them total from turns 5 and 10.

    This makes me want to ask, how many rounds/ticks did the game last?  How much longer do you expect an actual game to last (in rounds/tick, not minutes)?  Will more models make it last more rounds or will the balance that there is more model on the opponents side balance out so you wind up with a game that is the same amount of rounds no matter how many models?

    (action bar cards had no vp value, not sure if they will later, but I didn't notice a stat for it--their resource was tick dependent).

    I guess thats another bright idea of mine completely shot down, oh well...

    Back to charge: So, with charge, gorebelly can die and respawn (two ticks) and then charge right to the vp.

    I imagine on larger maps the charge isn't as powerful as he's back in the VP hex fight the turn he respawns.  They have shown 2 other maps that are 10x10 and this demo map is 8x6 I believe.

    Charge adds a tick to the defender also. Sounds like 'Meh,' but considering the game is ALL about time/tick/timing management, adding a click to something is huge. More than huge...

    What I really like about this card is the taste of the power of ability cards and how keeping them a surprise makes them all the more fun.

    I don't remember the 'tags' for ability cards, but they function something like this: React, modify, action. These are my terms. Action takes the place of your regular action. Modify modifies an action. React, is, um, well, reacting to an action against you. :-)

    I believe what you refer to as modify is known as instant.

    Nice crit, but very unreliable--esp with only 4 attack dice.

    thats about a 34% chance of criting, btw.

    ...a bunch of good insight on tactics and some other infoz on a few ability cards

    I'll be reading this stuff again...

    Flash Heal: 2ticks? range? 4dice.

    I believe its called flash of light and its range is 2 and cost 2 ticks

    Fire blast: I honestly can't remember if this costs 0 ticks or 2. range 2? It modifies the action. 3 dice, crit +1. Rule to know (tm): You can move before or after you attack. With fire blast you can do even more. Example: You can regular attack, move and then fireblast something else (or same) all in one turn. (I think--I hit the same target). I felt this card was very strong. Basically it means that ruby can move and do 11 damage in one turn. Still, she better be able to, she has 5 life and no armor to speak of. And she has to play around terrain.

    This sounds over-powered.  Can you just tell me agian that she can shoot, move, then shot again at a different target?  Can anyone move after they have used an action that changes thier clock?

    There you have it. I hope this is new info and not just writing in vain.

    There was and its not.

    I believe pets will be equally strong as characters--which is huge. This is a guess trying to figure out how sealed would work. You don't want pets to be worthless space in sealed... so i guess they also function as actual monsters--with full character stats. We know there is a voidwalker monster. Do we? And a voidwalker pet. Do we? I doubt there would be different 'character' cards--that could mess-up sealed. If the backs of ALL cards are the same. You could put the summon cost on the front... and turn the character card face down, using it as an action card. Make sense? Seems like it would save a bit on printing, and open more space in the set. But, that's all just a guess. And frankly, as I was writing it, I began to doubt it.

    We do know there is a voidwalker monster and we know the model can be used as a token for a voidwalker pet.  I imagined that the stats of the pet would be listed on the ability cards that is used to summon said pet.  It seems over-powered to be able to bring a whole other full strength monster to the field just by summoning it.

    Thoughts? Questions? I can always go back and ask them directly.

    Other questions that are still lingering for me atm are where do you start?  I would guess on or next to the spirit caller thing, but I just wanted confirmation.  Also, it was mentioned that there would be movable terrain pieces, in the final version are all, most, some, or none of the terrain pieces going to be movable, and how will they be placed.

    Again, thanks for all the infoz, I really appreciate it (especially the stuff about pets).

  •  07-26-2008, 12:21 PM 1324623 in reply to 1323733

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    2189247:
    Interesting post.

    I feel that Hodoon and Gorebelly will have very different roles. Gorebelly is something of a centrepiece figure. He's impossible to ignore thanks to his big attack and taunt and his position will dictate the course of the battle (even in 5v5).

    Hmm... I feel that gorebelly's low resist might make him not such a good option for larger games simply because he's more likely to face damage from casters. A heavy hitting caster (like ruby) can reliably do 4ish damage to him. 2 attacks, 1 w/ action card and gorebelly would go down. I don't know how taunt works. But, Gorebelly doesn't seem like a tank that would want taunt. His armor is just too low. Still, you are right, he's impossible to ignore. I'm just not sure how often he'll be fielded in larger games.

    -c

  •  07-26-2008, 12:43 PM 1324651 in reply to 1324576

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    This makes me want to ask, how many rounds/ticks did the game last? 

    **Ours lasted about 12 turns. It could have been over turn 10, but I felt bad about the lopsizedness of the battle--so I let her kill Hodoon. She just hung gorebelly out to dry on turn 3 and since he attacked his death pushed his clock to 8... Pretty hard to catch up at that point.

    How much longer do you expect an actual game to last (in rounds/tick, not minutes)? 

    **To be honest, no clue. I drew a map and pushed rocks around last night looking at first strike strats and how the game unfolds from that first attack. I can imagine a lot of dancing between two good players. But, if cards truely are hidden from opponents that might change. In a tourney there will be lots and lots of scouting to find out about those cards. Hopefully you can bring a pool of 4 cards and decide which two you want after seeing your opponents army. Otherwise, so much will come down to scouting.

    Will more models make it last more rounds or will the balance that there is more model on the opponents side balance out so you wind up with a game that is the same amount of rounds no matter how many models?

    ** more figures, more time. You have to hold a lot of thoughts in your head to really get a feel for how a 5v5 game is about to go down. And you want to be thinking that before it goes down, not in the middle of it.

    Can you just tell me agian that she can shoot, move, then shot again at a different target?  Can anyone move after they have used an action that changes thier clock?

    **Not honestly, no. In our game I was able to fireball, fireblast and then move after. I believe Justin said that you can move before or after an action/attack--and fireblast is an instant, so it makes sense that you can attack, move and then instant. I targeted gorebelly with both attacks, but I don't see why you couldn't split the attack. About your 2nd question. Seems to me that once you 'activate' a figure, even if you move his clock during the activiation, he gets to finish his activation--noted by attacking first and then moving.

    It seems over-powered to be able to bring a whole other full strength monster to the field just by summoning it.

    **In 5v5 that would only be 1 more figure--a 20ish% increase in power. Considering how strong action cards are in the right situation, I don't know. Plus, what if "monster' cards have much lower honor, play by having the numbers over equal power to horde/alliance. Plus, it could take 5 ticks to summon... etc. But, yeah, I have no idea. It's all theory.

    You start and spawn directly on the SH. I know nothing about movable terrain.

    -c

  •  07-26-2008, 3:36 PM 1324825 in reply to 1324651

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    "I can imagine a lot of dancing between two good players. But, if cards truely are hidden from opponents that might change. In a tourney there will be lots and lots of scouting to find out about those cards. Hopefully you can bring a pool of 4 cards and decide which two you want after seeing your opponents army. Otherwise, so much will come down to scouting."

    They said that your squad will change from game to game so your cards would have to change as well.  My sense is you can bring any squad you want to the battle, but there may be some limit to that.

    "more figures, more time. You have to hold a lot of thoughts in your head to really get a feel for how a 5v5 game is about to go down. And you want to be thinking that before it goes down, not in the middle of it."

    More time, yes, definitely.  But more rounds was my question and that is not necessarily true, sine both side will be putting out more damage per round.
  •  07-26-2008, 3:51 PM 1324841 in reply to 1324623

    Re: San Diego Comic Con Demo news & info & stats & tactics...

    Taunt: If an adjacent enemy attacks it must target an enemy with taunt if able (Gorebelly possesses this ability).

    I don't mind belly's armor/hp vs opposing bashers/hunters, but you're right, sending him into a hail of arcane blasts isn't gonna be wise. Maybe Belly is better suited for entering an established melee where there are already damaged units on both sides. He can charge in from outside of blast range, and dish out beats while forcing your opponent to spend attacks on a unit with a full health complement, thanks to taunt. In a game where a 1 health unit is still as potent as it was at full health, being able to spread damage around like that is a very powerful technique



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