TCG Rules Questions

Re: Avenging Wrath

1829719 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:03:29 GMT

Oh dang. That makes so much more sense. Thanks for the help, it put a nice little visual of whats going on in my head.

Re: Avenging Wrath

1123981 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:17:43 GMT

All heroes have a default ATK of 0. Modifiers are applied in timestamp order. During combat, after the weapon strike and Avenging Wrath have resolved, there are two modifiers that are trying to modify your hero's ATK. The weapon strike was first and Avenging Wrath was second, so first the ATK is increased by 3 and then the ATK is doubled to 6. Now combat ends and the strike modifier goes away. We apply all modifiers in timestamp order, so your hero has an ATK of 0 and Avenging Wrath doubles it. 0 times 2 is 0. Yay math!

Re: Avenging Wrath

1829719 — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:42:46 GMT

I'd really hate to open up this topic again, but I'm confused as to why using Avenging Wrath after a weapon strike resolves does NOT give your hero +x attack for the rest of the turn, where x is the attack of the weapon.

303.2a Striking with a weapon follows the applicable rules for adding links (707) and adds a strike
effect to the chain. As a strike effect resolves, it creates a strike modifier that gives its
controller’s hero both of the following for the duration of the combat step:
• +X ATK, where X is the ATK of that weapon as that effect resolves.
• The damage type (205) of that weapon.

Let's say hero attacks, strikes with Krol Blade, strike resolves and hero has 3 attack. Player plays Avenging Wrath, which doubles the hero's attack for the turn. When Avenging Wrath resolves, the hero has 6 attack for the combat, right? However, why does his attack go to 0 at the end of combat if striking with the weapon only added 3? The strike effect added a temporary attack value to the hero, while the effect of Avenging Wrath was not as temporary. Shouldn't the hero still have 3 attack after the combat concludes until the wrap up step of the turn since striking with krol blade only gave him 3 attack?

If I'm wrong, please explain because I'm in the dark here.

Re: Avenging Wrath

1598361 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:47:42 GMT

sweet!.....thanks for the quick reply!

Re: Avenging Wrath

996018 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:12:46 GMT

1598361:
First off i'm very sorry to bring this up again but as i'm new i don;t quite understand and would like to clear some things up.

as i understand it.

if i have a Blessing of Might and Crusade in play. I attack and play AW (heros atk now 6). play rak and ready and attack again, my heros atck is still 6?

Blessing of Might and Crusade in play with a fel iron hatchet. I attack,strike and play AW (heroes atk now 10).play RAk and ready and attack again,My heros attack is now 8 (1-blessing,2crusade+double=6+2 frm fel iron hatchet?)

Thanks alot guys!

Correct. Since the strike from the Fel Iron Hatchet in the second combat occured after Avenging Wrath resolved, it will not be part of the doubling.

Re: Avenging Wrath

1292276 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:12:21 GMT

1598361:
if i have a Blessing of Might and Crusade in play. I attack and play AW (heros atk now 6). play rak and ready and attack again, my heros atck is still 6?

Blessing of Might and Crusade in play with a fel iron hatchet. I attack,strike and play AW (heroes atk now 10).play RAk and ready and attack again,My heros attack is now 8 (1-blessing,2crusade+double=6+2 frm fel iron hatchet?)

Sounds right to me.

Re: Avenging Wrath

1598361 — Tue, 06 May 2008 17:05:03 GMT

First off i'm very sorry to bring this up again but as i'm new i don;t quite understand and would like to clear some things up.

as i understand it.

if i have a Blessing of Might and Crusade in play. I attack and play AW (heros atk now 6). play rak and ready and attack again, my heros atck is still 6?

Blessing of Might and Crusade in play with a fel iron hatchet. I attack,strike and play AW (heroes atk now 10).play RAk and ready and attack again,My heros attack is now 8 (1-blessing,2crusade+double=6+2 frm fel iron hatchet?)

Thanks alot guys!

Re: Avenging Wrath

1039786 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 05:06:52 GMT

1123981:
The modifier it creates lasts for the entire turn, and if there are any other modifiers with an earlier timestamp, like Blessing of Might for example, then it will continue to apply after those modifiers have already been applied.

Edit: 714.3e doesn't even have anything to do with this situation. 714.3e covers things like Battle Shout, "Allies in your party have +1 ATK." When a new ally enters play the modifier from Battle Shout checks to see if there are any other cards that would be affected by it and since there is another ally in play it affects it.

Well an ongoing ability may not be the proper comparison, since it specifically cites rally the troops which would be the comparison of "Allies in your party have +1 atk this turn" and "double your hero's atk this turn"
Obviously UDE settled it, but I can definately see the ambiguity with that rule

Re: Avenging Wrath

1123981 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:44:55 GMT

The modifier it creates lasts for the entire turn, and if there are any other modifiers with an earlier timestamp, like Blessing of Might for example, then it will continue to apply after those modifiers have already been applied.

Edit: 714.3e doesn't even have anything to do with this situation. 714.3e covers things like Battle Shout, "Allies in your party have +1 ATK." When a new ally enters play the modifier from Battle Shout checks to see if there are any other cards that would be affected by it and since there is another ally in play it affects it.

Re: Avenging Wrath

1700912 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:38:38 GMT

While I am satisfied with this official ruling gifted to us from on high, The rules I quoted earlier (esp 714.3e) still seem, in my mind, to contradict 718.1. Avenging wrath shouldn't say "this turn" if it is not going to do what it says for the entire turn, and instead sort of doubles your attack this turn.

"Double any attack you had before you played Avenging Wrath this turn. If that attack is again added to your hero, it's doubled, but if a new attack value is added, it is not doubled."

Screw Pallies

: P

Re: Avenging Wrath

1738065 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 03:15:52 GMT

Well, I'm glad we got an offical ruling (not to say our "Elders" aren't a great source, cause they are!)

Its a shame the card (AW) is now offically terrible. I thought you guys were trying to make Ret decent :) (I kid).

Re: Avenging Wrath

996018 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:56:40 GMT

Ah, I see the difference now with definite and indefinite modifiers and the "while" conditions. Something like Nyn'jah would be a definite modifier with a "while" condition. I was just getting myself all twisted around and tripped on a single word.

Thanks Paul.

Oh and giggles at being called an elder statesmen.

Re: Avenging Wrath

1462522 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:45:51 GMT

This thread makes my head spin :/

Re: Avenging Wrath

1120110 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:44:01 GMT

Hi All,

This thread is spiralling out of control in a couple of different directions, so to rein it in:

* First of all, Houjix got it right all the way back in post 4, Aragorn concurred in post 6 while clearing up some confusion about replacement modifiers, and BlueRider was the first to correctly answer the specific question about Rak hijinks in post 9. Since then, there have been a variety of posts erroneously thinking the rules worked differently, or wishing that they did, but those three elder statesmen have continued to present a unified (and correct) front on the subject. So I respectfully disagree with the statement that there have been "3 pages and no clear answer".

* The original confusion seems to stem from the mistaken idea that "doubling" modifiers are always applied AFTER all other modifiers (or at least additive ones) even though (a) there's no such rule and (b) there IS a rule (the oft-quoted 718.1) that specifically contradicts that notion.

* If this misconception were true, then the sequence of events would seem to be: hero attacks, weapon strikes (+4), AW does its doubling (8), then that combat concludes and the hero's ATK goes back to zero as the strike modifier ends (because double zero is zero - I haven't seen that actually stated anywhere but that's what happens :)) Then Rak does his thing, hero attacks again, weapon strikes again, but rather than simply add 4, it's somehow inserted under/before the doubling modifier so that the hero ends up at 8 again. All I can say is that's NOT how it works, and the reason it doesn't work that way is rule 718.1.

* Finally, and most recently, there has been some terminology-related confusion:

996018:
1509211:

Blessing of might does it... and it's pally! Mason's Fraternity ring. Aura of Fanatacism.

If you attacked, then played AR, you would have Double ATK. You would have That amout of attack every combat that turn if you could find a way to ready your hero.

Actually no, which make Avenging Wrath even more worthless

Blessing of Freedom has a definite power which creates a definite modifier, and as such the modifier gains a new time stamp each time the hero would attack meaning only the first instance before the AW is played would be included in the doubling.

Blessing of Might, 2, Paladin (Azeroth-62U)
Instant Ability—Retribution Blessing
Attach to target hero or ally. <p> Ongoing: Attached character has +1 ATK while attacking.

This reply is incorrect. Blessing of Might has an indefinite power that generates an indefinite modifier. Definite powers generate a modifier "as" an event happens (e.g. Greatsword of Horrid Dreams), not "while" a condition is true.

As a result, as long as Blessing of Might resolved before Avenging Wrath this turn, your hero would have +2 while attacking in every combat this turn.

Thanks for all contributions!
PR

Re: Avenging Wrath

1738065 — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:33:35 GMT

Thats because the timestamp portion is not the important part of the rule, its an addition or clarification to the rule so that it works correctly.

If the rule just said: "Some continuous modifiers say to “double” a numerical value. Such a modifier continuously doubles that value." You could say that it only doubles only the value it sees upon resolution. So if you used your weapons strike cost, in response, your opponent mills you with some random effect, in response you complete a quest, draw an AW and play it.

In this case, AW would give you nothing, because it is not checking for an earlier timestamped strike cost effect which may still be on the chain.

As well, "Such a modifier continuously doubles that value." seems like clear cut evidence alone that the value is continuously modified (that turn) regardless of any timestamped effects that may happen afterwards. The value being continuously doubled is the ATK OF your Hero, not the ATK given TO your Hero. Therefore, during that turn, whatever your Hero's ATK is, it is doubled.