I see what you're saying but that's way too skewed.

How about 5 for a regular win.
and 4 for timed win.
0 for a loss.

Then, three timed wins will still be better than two regular wins.

Cheers.

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Considering it is often not a players choice whether the game goes to time or not, it doesnt really make much sense to me to award less points for winning a match that goes to time. A win is still a win, even if the opponent got really bad draws, they got a DQ, or the game was won by time etc. Awarding no points to the time game loser encourages collusion as it is in both players interests if one player gets the most points possible (one player directly benefits from more points, while the opponent indirectly benefits from better tiebreakers), and if the loser is awarded some quantity of points for a timed loss, then it encourages slowplaying in hopeless situations which drags the tournament length out longer.

3016247:

Considering it is often not a players choice whether the game goes to time or not, it doesnt really make much sense to me to award less points for winning a match that goes to time. A win is still a win, even if the opponent got really bad draws, they got a DQ, or the game was won by time etc. Awarding no points to the time game loser encourages collusion as it is in both players interests if one player gets the most points possible (one player directly benefits from more points, while the opponent indirectly benefits from better tiebreakers), and if the loser is awarded some quantity of points for a timed loss, then it encourages slowplaying in hopeless situations which drags the tournament length out longer.

I think the point is that a win on damage in extra turns is probably entirely unrelated to who would have won the third game had it been played to completion.  In games where aggro plays control it's likely to go the aggro players way, and in matchups between similar decks it's pretty much a coin flip.  A lot of the time WoW is a game of attritional card advantage - you can take 20 damage quite happily and know with 99% certainty that you're going to win because in taking that 20 damage you got ahead on cards and are going to crush them over time.  Games one and two of WoW reward you for setting your deck up that way.  In game three the extra turns mechanics of WoW flip the objectives of the game on their head and attritional card advantage becomes worthless next to 'playing badly' and dealing as much damage as possible as quickly as you can. 

I think there should be some recognition in WoW that a 'loss' on time probably has a large dollop of unfairness attached to it (which Magic avoids by giving draws rather than saying one player got 100% of the rewards and the other player got nothing).  I agree with Jeff's insight that a point for losing in time would certainly encourage a player to stall out if he knows he's losing - but that's only the same as in Magic where players can try to stall out for a draw and effective judging tends to ensure that doesn't happen.

I think there's two issues...
1) Recognising the unfairness of a 1-0 system that is decided in a significant portion of games by playing an entirely different game with entirely different win conditions that either massively favour one player because of the matchup, or is essentially random.
2) Ensuring players don't slow-play in order to gain the benefits of the fact that the third game will have entirely different win conditions that massively favour them.

Average game length needs to be brought down - making the stallers more obvious, and the reducing the portion of games decided in extra turns.  This is something that R&D can make happen, and judges can police.


BTW... what's wrong with drawn matches?

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If people are complaining about going to time now, just think how much they are going to complain when they are beating someone easily but they don't get credit for the full win because that person was playing slow.

1395285:

If people are complaining about going to time now, just think how much they are going to complain when they are beating someone easily but they don't get credit for the full win because that person was playing slow.

Which is actually a better position for them to be in than in Magic, where the game would be declared a draw when it went to time and they get 1pt rather than 2 or 3pts.  And stalling/slow play is nowhere near as big a problem in Magic as it is in WoW, suggesting that the system there is more successful in tackling slow play.

I think that, in a perverse way, the decision that every game MUST end in a win encourages stalling.  In most matchups one player will understand that he is very likely to win a game that is decided on damage, and so that player has every reason to play slowly and try to ensure that the third game goes long.  If end of turns would only reward slow play with a draw (or a reduced value win) instead of a win then that incentive is removed.

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...stalling/slow play is nowhere near as big a problem in Magic as it is in WoW, suggesting that the system there is more successful in tackling slow play.

I think games of Magic are just faster than games of WoW.  The way Magic is designed, matches almost always end within an hour. This makes hour long rounds a perfect fit for the Magic tournament scene. I am pretty sure that WoW matches are a lot slower on average, simply due to the way the game is designed. It was really poor implimentation from UDE to take this slower card game and plug it directly into the same length of round that WOTC uses for Magic. They are different games, they need different length of rounds.

Either that or UDE needs to start designing cards to make games end faster.  Maybe if everyone played Kilzin? (although I have gone to time in Kilzin mirrors before too... its just the way this game is designed, seriously)

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1130980:

...stalling/slow play is nowhere near as big a problem in Magic as it is in WoW, suggesting that the system there is more successful in tackling slow play.

I think games of Magic are just faster than games of WoW.  The way Magic is designed, matches almost always end within an hour. This makes hour long rounds a perfect fit for the Magic tournament scene. I am pretty sure that WoW matches are a lot slower on average, simply due to the way the game is designed. It was really poor implimentation from UDE to take this slower card game and plug it directly into the same length of round that WOTC uses for Magic. They are different games, they need different length of rounds.

Either that or UDE needs to start designing cards to make games end faster.  Maybe if everyone played Kilzin? (although I have gone to time in Kilzin mirrors before too... its just the way this game is designed, seriously)

It's certainly true that WoW games take longer... but WoW rounds are already 10 minutes longer than Magic rounds to reflect this (Magic is 50 minute rounds).

The hour time limit is part of the constraints of the Swiss Pairings allowing you to complete the required number of rounds within a reasonable time limit.  Upping the time per round to 75 minutes adds up to another two hours onto the first day of the average DMF.  It would be manageable for Constructed events because you don't have deck reg/building to fit in but would badly stretch the length of a day for Limited events.  Adding extra time onto each round is the obvious solution that isn't really feasible (unfortunately).

You want to bring down average time per game.  Part of that is game design, and part of that is managing deliberate slow play.

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You know, there was a previous UDE game that started out its tournament structure with 60 minute rounds and 2 out of 3 matches. They also had massive problems with games going to time during the first major events.  What was the solution to fix the problem there? Anyone remember?

I also played that previous game during its first year, and had way less games go to time than I do in wow. Its a bigger problem in this game, yet nothing has been done to try and solve it. In fact, I would argue its getting worse now (especially in limited) with the Drums Block being slow as molasses. Sigh.

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Team Seattle - Choosing to go second since Realms 1.

1130980:

I would argue its getting worse now (especially in limited) with the Drums Block being slow as molasses. Sigh.

New block soon!

(I never played the other game so won't comment on that part).

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