Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

While I was TO'ing last weekend I noticed a player going through his deck and taking out cards in certain order, I asked him what he was doing and he said something about orgainzing he cards so he can gauratee a decent shuffle afterwards. It really looked like stacking of the deck to me (and this kid usually gets the cards he wants fairly quickly) so I told him to shuffle his cards face down. He whined but complied.

Did I do the right thing? Can I tell people only shuffle face down? What are ways you other TOs/Judges insure players shuffle properly?

I can't seem to find any mention of it in either the policy documents or comprehensive rules, but the FAQ entry for Fortune Telling mentions that decks are always shuffled and cut face down.

---

Andy Danielson
World of Warcraft Rules Knowledge level 1
Player Management level 1

Its in the tounrmant policy. Players must shuffle there cards in way they can not see whats on the bottom and such. Also organizing your cards in a partern is also not permitted.

Copied from section 17.Shuffling in the UDE tournament policy doc.

Presenting your deck to your opponent implicitly states that you have thoroughly randomized your deck. Players may not pre-set or sort their decks in any specific order before shuffling. Stacking a deck or illegally manipulating the order of the cards while shuffling is considered cheating.

Players are expected to shuffle quickly. Players are limited to 30 seconds of shuffling during a game and two minutes of shuffling between games.

Players are expected to shuffle carefully. Players must shuffle in a manner such that they cannot see the bottom of the deck while shuffling. Players must ensure that no cards are damaged while shuffling their opponent’s deck.

---

World of Warcraft TCG Rules Lvl 2
Huntik Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 2
The force is with you!!

A similar question came up on the Yu-Gi-Oh forums with the same answers, don't do it.
http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/community/forums/thread/1012547.aspx

Question about shuffling.  This is somethig i've done for a very long time and no one has ever said anything about it.  At the conclusion of a game, I will pick up my cards 2 cards then a quest, 2 cards thena  quest etc... then After sideboarding or whatever I proceed to shuffle as it states to in the comp rules.  Is this against the rules?

---

William C. Zobac
Lubbock, TX
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW Minis RK 1
PM LV 1

This could be defined as pre-sorting your deck. I'd be careful about even giving the impression that you might be doing something to illegally manipulate your deck.

Does this mean we should shuffle a player's deck before returning it after a deck check?  Or is it only when the player does this that it's a problem?

---

Andy Danielson
World of Warcraft Rules Knowledge level 1
Player Management level 1

The policy document says "Players may not pre-set or sort their decks in any specific order before shuffling." It says nothing about judges.

In this case, I think the important factor is getting the decks back to the players in an expedient manner.

I know a guy that in between some matches separates his cards into the original order when he started, all like cards together.  However, once he has them back together he puts them in the same pile "face down" and proceeds to shuffle as normal.

I don't see a problem with this as he isn't doing anything that anyone could have done walking into a match, besides the opponent has free reign to shuffle, cut and restack his deck any way they see fit so long as it does not expose or damage any of his cards.

The way I see it, it doesn't matter how they stack the deck before shuffling it, so long as it is thoroughly shuffled after any deliberate sorting, and the "shuffling" process does not take longer than a reasonable amount of time for shuffling (some what subjective).

---

Famous last words:

"That's odd..."

1466854:

The way I see it, it doesn't matter how they stack the deck before shuffling it, so long as it is thoroughly shuffled after any deliberate sorting, and the "shuffling" process does not take longer than a reasonable amount of time for shuffling (some what subjective).

The policy documents disagree with you.

If you follow the link I posted earlier, you'll see this quote from Julia

Doesn't matter if you randomize after, you can't preset your deck. A lot of players still don't realize this.

1123981:

Does this mean we should shuffle a player's deck before returning it after a deck check?  Or is it only when the player does this that it's a problem?

You do need to tell the players they have to shuffle fully when you return the deck to them. Typically when doing a deck check, it is in the players best interest to shuffle thoroughly.

1202630:

Question about shuffling.  This is somethig i've done for a very long time and no one has ever said anything about it.  At the conclusion of a game, I will pick up my cards 2 cards then a quest, 2 cards thena  quest etc... then After sideboarding or whatever I proceed to shuffle as it states to in the comp rules.  Is this against the rules?

For some reason a LOT of players don't seem to understand NO presorting or arranging your deck is allowed. If you are making any kind of organization or pattern where you can see what the cards are or even what type of cards they are, then you are doing something that is expressly disallowed by the policy document.

If you are concerned about clumping, do a couple of pile shuffles.  (dealing the cards face down into several piles then collecting them). Personally I will do a pile shuffle and rifle shuffle the piles together as I collect them.

---

WoW RK2
VS RK2
YGO RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

1292276:

1466854:

The way I see it, it doesn't matter how they stack the deck before shuffling it, so long as it is thoroughly shuffled after any deliberate sorting, and the "shuffling" process does not take longer than a reasonable amount of time for shuffling (some what subjective).

The policy documents disagree with you.

If you follow the link I posted earlier, you'll see this quote from Julia

Doesn't matter if you randomize after, you can't preset your deck. A lot of players still don't realize this.

I stand corrected.

However, this does not keep someone from doing so before a tournament.  Though I understand the spirit of this policy (and will of course enforce it as written), it is a bit of a blanket rule that has holes.

In the end it doesn't matter what I feel is right or not, so long as I objectively follow the rules to the best of my ability.  Having said that I must say I'm not sure how I feel about not allowing someone to sort in any manner.  The way this reads to me would mean that when I pick up my cards like ferrier13 said above in the fourth response, I must do so in no specific manner.

This would mean probably 90% of all players are in violation.  If this is true, then the rule should be more clearly defined.  Could you imagine how much of a rules Nazi I would have to be in order to enforce the rule as written?  Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with enforcing rules, no matter how I feel about them on a personal level.

My only "feel good" answer to this situation is that it comes down to how much a player crosses the line (which is subjective) and my Player Management skills in regards to providing a fare and fun game.

So am I wrong to say that the order which a player picks up after a game or match is not a serious enough violation, but that sorting the cards in any way where they can be seen is a no, no?

---

Famous last words:

"That's odd..."

Also, when side decking in and out, if a player intentionally places the cards from the side deck into the main deck in an evenly spaced manner in an attempt to keep them from clumping, is this enough of a violation?

After reading the thread and Alex Charsky's response in the Shuffling Technique thread, I know that putting the side deck cards in the main deck with any congitive intention is illegal.  And I also know I'm broaching the realm of insane anal retentiveness with this query, but I am curious as to what you all think.

---

Famous last words:

"That's odd..."

This is slightly off topic, but we're reviewing the pre-setting rule on the PM3 forum right now. If folks feel strongly about having this rule, or removing this rule, or re-defining this rule, please post your thoughts in this thread.

---

Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck

1466854:

Also, when side decking in and out, if a player intentionally places the cards from the side deck into the main deck in an evenly spaced manner in an attempt to keep them from clumping, is this enough of a violation?

That would only be a violation if he were looking at the cards next to where he was inserting them. Or if they were looking through their deck to see where they wanted to insert the side decked cards. Inserting the side deck cards while face down and not looking at any of other cards in the deck is not presorting.

The main guideline for that penaty (at least unless it gets changed in the new discussions) is if the player is looking at the front or back of the cards. If they are looking at the front, they are presorting, if they are looking at the back, they are just randomizing.

---

WoW RK2
VS RK2
YGO RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1