Player Management

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

869587 — Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:36:12 GMT

The next version of the Penalty Guide should codify Upper Deck's policy on this. Hopefully, it should be out soon.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

1999915 — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:11:49 GMT

Did this issue get resolved?

In my opinion, the only way for this to be perfectly resolved for the purposes of "judgement" is that WoW publishes a "standard tournament shuffle procedure"; which gives step by step instructions on how to shuffle (complete with diagrams). Otherwise, players can choose how they shuffle, and therein lies the entire problem.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

766887 — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:47:06 GMT

In fact, I always pile shuffle (usually in between "regular" shuffles). This allows me to count his cards and look for marks. 5 stacks will quickly tell me if he side-decked correctly. When I start a match, I begin by "how many cards in your deck?", while I shuffle. After he tells me, I move to pile, looking at his card backs for marks. Easy math tells me if he has the right number, then a few more shuffles and we're good to go. Do that every game, whether the opponent sides or not, and you have a much easier chance of catching at least two forms of cheating. But don't forget to also keep on eye on your own deck.......

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

366390 — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:48:47 GMT

Absolutely you can pile shuffle your opponent's deck. Just learn to do so quickly so as not to delay the match.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

1733559 — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:59:30 GMT

I just wanted to thank D1Case for bringing this topic back up, and to my attention to the first time. After reading through the first page, I've looked back at previous games I've had, where I realized that the possibility of my opponent cheating with stacked cards was very possible, considering the ammount of times god hands and combos have been pulled on me, to include Exodia drawn on the first turn due to my poor shuffling of the opponent's deck. In fact, the only 1 time I can really remember my opponent being truely disapointed after was one where I did a very nice job of shuffling their deck because I was talking with them as I did it. They had to concede because their deck fell apart on them right away.

I feel that I'll take the advice and try to shuffle my opponents deck at least seven times, or maybe even a pile shuffle and 3 normal shuffles.

Is it alright to do the pile shuffle on an opponent's deck in between duels in a single match?

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

366390 — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:30:53 GMT

1468858:
I see great value in a "Insufficient randomization" penalty at Premiere events. I'd recommend defining the Penalty as a Match Loss, because, at premiere play, we should be holding the player accountable to the highest standards. But I also believe that this is one that the Head Judge should be allowed significant latitude in reducing depending on the evidence available. It should even include a caveate to allow it to be waived for our youngest players at locals, and maybe reduced to a Warning at Dragon Duel level events. [The analysis of the actual shuffling techniques would be subjective and will be left to the Head Judge's call. ] This penalty would be serve the purpose of increasing awareness, at the same time it would support player development and not create a "cheater" stigma for what could have been an honest mistake.

Interesting thought pattern there D1, it appears to me (and please correct me if I've misunderstood your thought pattern or incorrectly percieved it) that you're looking at failure to sufficiantly randomize (unintentionally) along the lines of Marked Cards-Major (Match Loss) with a similar reasoning of both penalties in that the potential for cheating is extremely high and therefore might / should carry a harsh penalty.

If that's your train of thought I think I could buy into that.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

1468858 — Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:08:12 GMT

731819:
I am curious to hear well thought-out opinions on the "no pre-ordering of your deck" rule that exists in our tournamen policy. We have a few options we're looking at on the PM 3 forum:1. Keep the rule as is and enforce it.
2. Clarify the rule to allow some forms of presetting, but not others.
3. Remove the rule and make an insufficient randomization penalty.

P-33 Unsporting Conduct—Cheating (Penalty: Disqualification without Prize)

Cheating is the highest display of unsporting conduct a player can exhibit during a tournament. Cheating includes, but is not limited to, intentionally misrepresenting the game state, rules, or policies; reporting inaccurate information to tournament officials; and bribery. A statement must be sent to the address given at the beginning of this document outlining the incident leading to this penalty. Examples:

* A player in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG pre-sets his deck while side decking and does not sufficiently randomize his deck before presenting it to his opponent.

Lightsworns, Malicious/D-Draws, Grandmasters and other YGO cards are causing me to revisit this thread. Over the last (almost) year we have had a lot of healthy development on shuffling decks, and the proper procedures that both the player and the opponent should be using to ensure a fair game. (Of course I am still amazed at the player who top-4'd this weekend while frequently declining the cut.)

Back to the issue: It is blatant cheating to preset the order of cards, then make minimal/insufficient effort to randomize the deck. And the current P-33 (UC -Cheating) covers this perfectly. "Grouping" Sangan with Crush is an effort to stack to achieve a quick win, and just because the player does not stand a 100% chance of drawing it on the opening hand does not mitigate the penalty.

As compared to flat-out stacking, today's much more common mis-play is the current "de-clumping" of cards like Malicious, Grandmaster, Wulf, etc. followed by only minimal shuffling/cutting, to increase the likelihood that the cards are well positioned in the deck. Here, P-33 seems excessive and inaccurate when applied against "complacent player" actions.

To start with, De-clumping cards is "presetting" cards, and can (intentionally or unintentionally) allow a player unfair insight into the deck. It is an intentional act to improve the deck's draws, and manipulate his deck to avoid drawing a dead hand. If the player's actions stopped here, P-33 (UC - Cheating) would apply.

Now, if the player makes some effort at shuffling, but not enough to fully randomize the deck, where do we draw the line? Placing a card on/near the top just means it will be cut into the middle. The result of the "casual" play is the player potentially having knowledge of his deck, and/or potentially giving him an unfair draw. He certainly will not open with a hand of 3 Malicious.

I see great value in a "Insufficient randomization" penalty at Premiere events. I'd recommend defining the Penalty as a Match Loss, because, at premiere play, we should be holding the player accountable to the highest standards. But I also believe that this is one that the Head Judge should be allowed significant latitude in reducing depending on the evidence available. It should even include a caveate to allow it to be waived for our youngest players at locals, and maybe reduced to a Warning at Dragon Duel level events. [The analysis of the actual shuffling techniques would be subjective and will be left to the Head Judge's call. ] This penalty would be serve the purpose of increasing awareness, at the same time it would support player development and not create a "cheater" stigma for what could have been an honest mistake.

Enjoying the game

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

1715789 — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 12:41:26 GMT

If pre-ordering of your deck, even before it is shuffled, becomes allowed it will only give some players another opportunity to attempt an unfair advantage. Leave the rule as is. It is simple with no allowance to misinterpretation. There shall be no pre-ordering of any kind...

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

366390 — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:20:18 GMT

Perhaps in WoW people have mixed feelings and I can understand that in that particular game, the players seem to be more trusting and "seem" to be less apt to look for ways to cheat. I think if you had the same thread for Yugioh though you'd get a much different response from those players, I'm willing to bet they'd insist on shuffling their opponent's deck...and wouldn't consider it rude in the least.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

1220434 — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:52:06 GMT

I wanted to point to a thread currently on the World of Warcraft forums. Apparently, people have very mixed feelings about shuffling others their decks...

A must read, I reckon, for everyone who has posted anything in this thread.

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/wow/community/forums/1/1126203/ShowThread.aspx

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

1220434 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:01:41 GMT

Why would face down cards be different than face-up?

For example, let's say I take my deck and the quests. I can insert the quests in such a way, that I know where they are (as discussed earlier in this thread), then I can still shuffle, and still know where the were. Now, let's say, I know where I put that great card face down in my resources, I'm taking all my resources and putting them face down in apile and then I will do as you suggest, which is not cheating...

You see, even what you say, should be considered cheating, how else will we draw a line or make it easy for us to see who cheats? You do realise, that what you say, is just another form of stacking? Either stacking is illegal or it isn't. Not like you say, where some things are legal and other thigns are not. And both of them can be mixed up. Yes, even if we're only talking quests, where the player is just "inserting" them into his deck, seemingly at random, should be considered cheating.

I'm on a small crusade here, because there just isn't a clear line. What is stacking, what isn't? Stacking is illegal, but obviously, some stacking things aren't. That's why I simply say, allow stacking, enforce good shuffling.It won't change the scene, because it will not really change anything, instead, it will make more games more random...

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

284102 — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:15:21 GMT

Patrigan:
So you're saying that declumping your deck, by dividing your deck into stacks of abilities, quests and allies and equipment and then making sure none of these are close together, is not considered cheating?

Not at all. If you are SORTING your deck then declumping you are presorting. Your example was that a player after a match typically gathers the quests that were used together, then inserts them into the deck. If this is done with deck and quests face down, then it is not cheating. If he spends a minute and separates the deck into different card types or pulls out all the quests from the deck, then 'declumps', it is most definitely cheating.

Patrigan:
What you did say about cheaters getting caught, however, is completely wrong. I know Magic players, who cheat. They never get caught and they have won tourneys. If they did get a warning that their deck seems stacked, they just used another tactic, one that didn't involve stacking.

There is where you are misunderstanding what I was saying. If I deck check someone and SUSPECT they are stacking their deck or I think there is a pattern but not enough to be sure, then I will return the deck as if nothing is wrong. Then later deck check that same player again. They will think they got away with it and most likely continue cheating. A few more nervous ones will stop and not get caught on that, but more often than not, they will continue. As John said, look at the YGO suspended list and you'll see what I'm saying is true. In some cases they get so arrogant about thinking they won't get caught, they cheat when the judge is watching then are shocked when it is noticed.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

366390 — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:03:19 GMT

1220434:
What you did say about cheaters getting caught, however, is completely wrong. I know Magic players, who cheat. They never get caught and they have won tourneys. If they did get a warning that their deck seems stacked, they just used another tactic, one that didn't involve stacking. Sometimes they just didn't cheat anymore that tourney (they could win without too). They're just not stupid, but they did know that cheating would help a great deal. Your tactics only catch the stupid players, who in essence, won't win a prize anyway, because they probably don't even play good. They need to be caught too, that's a fact, but saying that you can't catch most players with those tactics is stupid. Those players that usually matter most for the top rankings, are the ones that have the lowest chance of getting caught.

I think if you compare the UDE Suspended Players list with the Yugioh rankings in North America you'll see a numerous (too many as a matter of fact) of the players from first page of the rankings also on the suspended players list. Cheaters DO get caught eventually, yes, event the good ones.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

1220434 — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:10:32 GMT

So you're saying that declumping your deck, by dividing your deck into stacks of abilities, quests and allies and equipment and then making sure none of these are close together, is not considered cheating?

That would be weird, because to me, in essence, that is exactly what most players do and in essence it's more than enough to have an edge up front. Yes, they still have to randomise it, but most players randomise badly (although that's hard to spot in most cases).

The fact that I dislike accusing players where I'm not certain, is probably because I'm still a bit inexperienced on bigger tourneys. Maybe in time, I will be able to see the things just as good as you do. Luckily I haven't actually ran in with a lot of cheaters. Or better said, I haven't been able to catch many cheaters ;)

What you did say about cheaters getting caught, however, is completely wrong. I know Magic players, who cheat. They never get caught and they have won tourneys. If they did get a warning that their deck seems stacked, they just used another tactic, one that didn't involve stacking. Sometimes they just didn't cheat anymore that tourney (they could win without too). They're just not stupid, but they did know that cheating would help a great deal. Your tactics only catch the stupid players, who in essence, won't win a prize anyway, because they probably don't even play good. They need to be caught too, that's a fact, but saying that you can't catch most players with those tactics is stupid. Those players that usually matter most for the top rankings, are the ones that have the lowest chance of getting caught.

PS: I did NOT support their actions, but I wasn't a judge in those days and I wasn't interested in Tourneys or judging back then either. I just wasn't interested in Magic, I guess. If I would know WoW-players, I would tell them that they better never come to a tourney where I judge and if I was 100% certain I would even post it around here or something.

Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

284102 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:22:04 GMT

Patrigan:

-A player might have shown his deck to a friend by laying it out (right cards might have been put together)
-A player sideboarded a whole new tactic in and put the cards a bit from eachother (this should be considered the same as doing this with other cards in your deck, because it IS the same)
-A player puts in all his resources (mainly quests in WoW) 1 by 1 each with a little bit of spacing, to prevent them from clumping.

I belive this has been stated before, if they are collecting their deck after a game of de-sidedecking or even if they pull out a couple cards to show a friend a combo, as long as the cards are inserted face down in a face down deck, they are still random and there is no presorting or pre-ordering.

Patrigan:

I disagree. I know many local judges from other places, that have to work during the day (so they can't pass the shop) and don't have enough time during the weekend. Many judges do this as a hobby but can't put in enough time. Their judging is enough for local level, but not for anything bigger.

this is where you can enlist some of the players to help you. teach one player that is there all the time and willing to help out (in my experience there are always players willing to help out, if they are just asked). After you teach that player how to shuffle (or found one that already knows) recruit him to help teach the younger or less experienced players.

Patrigan:

Sometimes, you don't see a player enough (or check a player enough) to be ableto do a careful investigation. I agree with what you say, but I can't believe that there is any possibility of checking this, except for local level. However, the stakes just aren't high enough for a player to risk it there. I have yet to judge a DMF level tournament (DMF Stuttgart will probably be my first), however, I can't see how it's possible to do a careful investigation... You can't punish a player for checking him once, maybe a warning. He might be smart and try not to do it anymore THAT tournament. Tournament afterwards he'll do it again, because there is no way of tracking wether he has been checked (on high level, it seems hard to remember which player did what). So either you will punish for 1 time event (poor boys who are just lucky) or you won't punish at all (yay for the cheaters). In seldom cases where the cheater is just plain stupid, he will get caught. But the best cheaters are not stupid, next to cheating they will also know how to play...

Actually at larger events there are teams of judges dedicated to checking decks. Decks are taken from the players after they present to their opponent. If a judge on the deck check team suspects a player is stacking their deck, they can note the pattern and specifically target that player later to see if there is a similar pattern later. most of the time deck checks are selected purely at random, but there are times they are targeted. Most players that cheat think that if they were deckchecked once, then they are safe. However, when selecting tables for deck checks at random (before knowing who would be at those tables), I have personally deck checked the same player as many as 4 times in one tournament. So even if you do target someone, they often won't think it is anything other than coincidence.

In addition, asking the right questions and watching the player's body language can usually tell you if they were intentionally cheating or it really was just random luck.

Patrigan:

I hope I made you see how hard it is to actually catch and punish cheaters. I can be wrong ofcourse and I hope you can enlighten me with some good methods (always great to learn from the better). A crusade/pure hate against cheaters is all nice and dandy, but if there's no good way to actually acuse someone of it, then punishments should not happen. Luckily there is the healthy dose of Human knowledge every judge has.

No one ever said catching cheaters was easy and as you said, we have our own knowledge and experience that we can use. To be honest, most players that cheat and get away with it once are more likely to keep trying and tend to get more careless until they are caught. As for if you accuse someone that is innocent of cheating, part of the process is to get their statement so UDE can investigate it further if needed. That gives that player a chance to state their case to UDE directly.

There was one time that I was not 100% sure but 90% sure they were cheating, when I told them that I was probably going to DQ them for cheating, their response confirmed it 100% for me. They acted as if they expected it and their only concern was if the rounds they already played would still count. Their reaction might have still swayed me that they were innocent if they hadn't acted like they knew they were guilty.