Player Management

Welcome to the Player Management forums!

855144 — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:15:16 GMT

Welcome to the Player Management forums!
(Moderators: Franklin Debrito, Edwin T.)

* This forum is for judges to discuss player management questions.

* You have to have a minimum of "Player Management: Level 1" to post here.

* Always search before starting a new topic. This includes via the 'Search' feature on the top right of the forums page, as well as all relevant judge resources.

* Please do post:
- Player management related questions and discussions
- Articles that you think other judges would find useful

* Please do not ask questions, or post about:
- Actual judge and/or player names, if it is an incident at a specific event
- Ongoing DQ investigations

These guidelines may change as this forum evolves.

Whilst these forums are run 'unmoderated', the moderators will actively monitor them. Moderators will edit and/or delete posts as necessarry - you will be sent a PM should this occur. We feel this is a better approach than running these forums 'moderated', where each and every post must be approved by a moderator instead.

Thank you for reading.

Judges with PM 3 certification

731819 — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:32:49 GMT

Here is a list of judges that passed the PM 3 certification. Some have opted to share a contact email address with anyone that's looking for more information about PM 2 testing in their area.

Name -- Approximate Area -- Email -- Cert 2 tests that they can administer

Andrew Bowling -- Wisconsin, Minnesota -- Email -- (PM)
John Danker -- Iowa -- Email -- (PM)
Jon Lacey -- Illinois -- Email -- (PM)
Aaron Matney -- Illinois -- (PM)
Jerome McHale -- Michigan -- (PM)
Erik Mock -- Florida, Georgia -- Email -- (PM/WoW)
Eric Wall -- Illinois-- Email (PM)
Dave Noble -- Vancoover BC, Washington, Oregon -- (PM)
Simon Sangpukdee -- Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina -- Email -- (PM)
Edwin Teh -- Southeast Asia (PM/WoW/Vs)
Frank Debrito -- Florida, Georgia -- Email -- (PM)
Chad Daniel -- Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina -- Email -- (PM/WoW/Vs)
André Bronswijk -- Germany -- Email -- (PM/WoW)
Rob Hooley -- Europe -- Email -- (PM/WoW)
Oliver Gehrmann -- Europe -- Email -- (PM)
Chris Goff -- Ohio -- Email -- (PM)
Simon Key -- Texas -- Email -- (PM)

John Alderfer -- Pennsylvania -- Email -- (PM)

Marked Cards

1192251 — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:03:03 GMT

I have been implementing a 0 tolerance for marked cards at the Competitive REL events that I run. I have been getting some mixed reviews, some of my players understand why I'm doing it while others are offended by it, to the point where they are getting discouraged by playing in my events. I even now have been givin the nick name "Sleeve Nazi" because of my attention to detail in dealing with this penalty.

I feel that for competitive REL events players should expect to bring brand new sleeves with no markings to the event, and expect that during play those sleeves may become marked and should be prepared to replace them if need be.

Is this a road I should continue to tread? Is it more important to run a tight event or an event where players are happy? I feel my policy on this is dead on, but I'm getting a lot of criticism that is saying otherwise. I don't care about being a popular judge, because sometimes judges make unpopular decisions that are necessary, but I do want my events to be as good as they can be. Please give me your feedback.

So, if a banned/suspended player wants to play

2465615 — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:32:40 GMT

First, how can I confirm if a player is banned/suspended? Still no reply from the penaltycommittee email I found.

Second, I ask because I suspect a suspected banned player may try to show up at Realms. Why do I suspect he was banned? He was found guilty of bribery during a qualifier at NACC. I expect such a thing would earn a suspension/ban. Does it not?

Third, it's relevant because this dude lives only a few hours' drive from the upcoming Florida realms location and has a moderate community of players last I heard, and I expect them to make the trip.

Insight would be appreciated. Answers would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

Never-Ending Match

747828 — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:31:51 GMT

I was asked to pose this question in this forum, originally posted in the WoW Rules forum.

Basically, the question is, what happens when there is a match that might never end? OK, so here's the scenario. I played a deck this weekend that used Footsteps of Illidan and Xi'ri to combo out and kill the opponent. It used Concentration Aura to make the abilities instant and Antonidas Aegis to make them untargetable.
The deck had no way to deal damage to the opponent, other than a Xi'ri attacking, which is an almost impossible scenario in the mirror. I am curious what would have happened if I had played the mirror match, someone playing the same deck (there were at least 2 of us playing the exact same list).
95% of those games will end up a draw. If either player tries to combo off and get Xi'ri into play, then the other player will play Footsteps on your hero, and at the end of the turn both heros will be destroyed simultaneously.
Both players could refuse to put Xi'ri into play, but eventually one player will get near decking out, and will be forced to play his Xi'ri and get a draw rather than lose to decking.
One player COULD win, but only in rare scenarios.

So, what happens if this matchup occurs in a tournament? The round could literally last upwards of 4 hours before a player won. I asked a few judges. None seemed to know, but one thing they told me for sure is that it is illegal for players to use a randomization device (i.e. die roll) to determine a winner.

So, what can be done? From a tournament management standpoint, you can't let the round go for hours over time. The only possible entries for Mantis are one player winning or a double-loss. However, a double-loss seems awkward as no player has done anything violating any rules. Also, neither player is deserving of a penalty because this deck was not intended to make draws, it is just an anomoly that occurs while having a mirror match. So, what can be done?

How to run tournaments?

2139079 — Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:34:06 GMT

I have recently taken (and passed) the online tests for Level 1 Tournament Organizer, Level 1 Player Management, and Level 1 World of Warcraft Rules. Does this mean I am now a "certified organizer", and able to run a sanctioned tournament?

I am familiar with Mantis, but my play group doesn't have a permanent locale for playing. There are no hobby stores in our town, or any nearby town. We usually play in somebody's basement or the like, but we're not always in the same place. Do I have to create a new event location for each locale we play in? Do I have to upload our event locations?

I am also interested in running Battlegrounds and Sneak Preview/Release Celebration events. How do I do that?

Thankful for help

Policy Documents Update!

869587 — Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:41:13 GMT

Hey all,

There are several new policy documents uploaded at www.ude.com/policy. These include Appendix C: WoW TCG Policies, Appendix P: Tournament Penalty Guide, and the UD Official Tournament Policy.

Here is a brief summary of the changes:

Appendix C:
C-50 – Clarified draft pick selection process.

Official Tournament Policy:
Removed several references to YuGiOh TCG
6 & 10 - Added player and spectator responsibility to notify a judge in a timely manner and in good faith if they observe an error occurring.
13 – The HJ of each event is the final arbiter of artistic modifications.
18 – Went into more detail about shuffling.
23 – Adjusted note taking policy. The fact that you make a note during a match is public information but you are not required to makes notes in a way that your opponent can understand them.

Appendix P:
P300 – All Game Error type infractions now have a Warning-Warning-Game Loss-Match Loss upgrade path.
P301 – Clarified that a Game Rule Error discovered immediately should always be backed up.
P306 – Added drawing when going first as an accepted deviation under Drawing Extra Cards.
P306 – Added additional wording to clarify card draws as a result of earlier Game Error infractions.
P308 – Rolling Too Few Dice no longer an upgradeable infraction for repeat behavior.
P403 – Clarified Insufficient Randomization
P501 – Clarified what happens if a Registration Error is not caught by the player receiving the decklist.
P703 – Added good faith wording in Misrepresenting Information.

Marvel demo decks?

366390 — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:17:21 GMT

I had the pleasure of having a demo of the new UD Marvel game at GenCon. I'd like to start showing it around my locals. How would one go about getting a demo deck?

Updated Appendix P: Tournament Penalty Guide released

869587 — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:48:54 GMT

Good morning everyone! The new version of the Upper Deck Penalty Guide has been posted at http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/COMMUNITY/files/28/english/category1006.aspx. This document *WILL* be in effect for Continentals. I would suggest that those attending that event have some degree of familiarity with it.

hobbygaming e-mail not working

1609381 — Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:45:49 GMT

Hello,

I know this isn't the best forum for this but I don't see a TO forum to use. I have been trying to mail the documents from a Realm Qualifier to hobbygaming@upperdeck.com and continually receive a delivery failure notification. Is the e-mail no longer correct? Am I doing something wrong. Anyone please help.

Tracy Reeves
TO/PM/WoW Minis and TCG Judge level 1

Purpose of Note Taking

1431021 — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 03:08:02 GMT

I know that notes are public information, therefore I cannot write in a language my opponent would not be able to read or in some code only I can understand. But do I have to tell my opponent WHY I am taking those particular notes?

Let's take the card Enlightenment, for example. It costs 25 resources to play, but I pay 1 less for each ability card in my graveyard. Enlightenment says that I win the game at the start of my next turn. This is my deck's win condition, so I am keeping track of the number of ability cards in my graveyard. Now I must tell my opponent that is what my notes are keeping track of, but do I have to tell my opponent my purpose for keeping track of that number?

Wrong result entered

1733232 — Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:30:09 GMT

This is more of a curiosity and a double check then something that actually happened. Lets say round one, player 1 beats player 2. Now, lets say round 3 pairings go up, player 1 feels like he's currently lower in the standings then he should be. Checks his results and notices that was marked as a loss for round 1. So, we'd assume this occurred by accident, say, the judge mis-clicked the results for his game. Because round 2 is already over, is it possible to go back, fix round 1, and re-pair, or because it's that late, is it too late to do anything?

Let's assume two other scenerios. The first is that the error isn't noticed until after the event, but before prizes are awarded. The second is that the error isn't noticed until after the event, after prizes are award and say, 2 days later.

player arriving late -minis

1758547 — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 01:40:25 GMT

In the game miniatures:

A TO can accept a player arriving late?

How long can I expect?

How many minutes is the tolerance to give the round 1 loss?

Thanks

Counterfeit cards

1292276 — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:31:27 GMT

I was pondering the other day, what exactly is the procedure for dealing with a counterfeit card if found in a player's deck during the course of a tournament? It makes a certain amount of sense to declare it an illegal card and therefore an illegal deck and move forward with that procedure (replace the card, game loss, move on).

But, I wanted to get others' opinions on this topic. Is there any interpretation where this rises to the level of cheating? If the infraction truly is an illegal deck, should this be changed? Is the current penalty enough of a deterrent to buying and using counterfeit cards?

Also, what do you all think of having a counterfeit card workshop for judges? Perhaps this could be a 15 minute presentation at GenCon where Upper Deck would bring real and counterfeit cards and show off the differences and how to spot them. I know that I've been asked by a player to check if some cards they had bought off eBay were counterfeit and I felt ill-prepared to make that call.

Thoughts?

What constitutes an "official match"?

280435 — Tue, 21 Jul 2009 03:21:59 GMT

This is something I inadvertently began discussing with UD and two PM3s recently.

The scenario is as follows: For whatever reason, a player is given a Match Loss penalty after he completes his current round match but before he signs the match result slip. Both players agree before a judge that there was a definite winner.

Question 1) Does the penalty apply to the current match or to the following round match?

Same situation, but the player gets disqualified after winning. Both players have agreed that the DQ player was the winner of the match. The slip has not been signed. Assuming that the DQ does not lead to suspension, the player wants to be sure his honor rating will count the current match win.

Question 2) When does a tournament match result become official?

Player drinking alcohol while playing

1438908 — Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:53:22 GMT

Hi,
I cant seem to figure out what to do when a player brings a beer to a sanctioned tournament and drinks it while playing.

He drank at least 2, maybe more, you could spot he acted a bit 'different', but on the other hand he didnt cause any major disruptions to the game. He was just probably a little more noisy than the average player, and was a bit 'uncomfortable' opponent to play against.

Is there any tournament policy handling this? It would seem to me he wouldnt be allowed to play, but this happened at a realm championship event and he played 6 rounds like this, only missing top8 in the last round.

Thanks.
-Smudlax

Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

731819 — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:24:56 GMT

I am curious to hear well thought-out opinions on the "no pre-ordering of your deck" rule that exists in our tournamen policy. We have a few options we're looking at on the PM 3 forum:

1. Keep the rule as is and enforce it.
2. Clarify the rule to allow some forms of presetting, but not others.
3. Remove the rule and make an insufficient randomization penalty.

Thanks,

Comments changing game state

1999915 — Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:06:32 GMT

From this thread:

Hi,

I can't quite find out what happens in this instance, so I'm asking here.

Here's the situation:

Players A and B are playing a game.

Random person walks by and states to other random person: "Hey, he has two Nether Fractures, is he purposely bluffing by letting that guy play that card?"

Player B (holding the 2 Nether Fractures in question) turns around and says: "Thanks for telling him what's in my hand!"

Now, the random people involved were not people in the tournament. Rather, they were just passing by. The one person didn't mean to say it so loudly; it's just that the area was noisy, and then for some reason it was quiet when he said it (you know those situations - loud noise, and then suddenly it's quiet and everyone can hear you?).

So as a judge, I deemed this to damage the game state and called that game a draw, gave them a time extension (they were only 10 minutes in) and let them play again. I told the random people not to watch the game and to move to another area.

I know that's not normally what would be done. What is the normal procedure?

Life Counters - Handy Tool

2797338 — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 14:39:59 GMT

So a quick word of introduction: I am absolutely terrible at finding the side I want on a die. The prevailing method of tracking damage in my local area is using dice of various sizes, turned so that the amount of current damage faces up.

Due to the aforementioned being terrible at doing it in a hurry, this sort of thing frustrates me to no end, particularly when a series of small packets are taken ("Take 2... and 2... and 1... and 3... and 2!").

So hey, I thought, why not do something about it?

I printed up one of these. It works easily enough- I got some green glass fishtank gems (a decent-sized tub of which costs roughly $2) which I use for tracking damage on allies, adding counters to cards, tokens which I don't have cards for, etc. I also use one gem on the card to track the tens column of damage, and one gem to track the ones column. It makes it a snap to take or heal damage, and it lets me see at a glance what sort of damage my hero has taken (or raid boss, when I run raids).

To improve sturdiness, I cut it out at just below card size and put it in a sleeve on top of a card. The black border on the counter blends in nicely with the black border on the card; the sleeve and card make it sturdy and stand up to abuse a lot better than just a slip of paper.

Well, it seemed to go over well with the local players, so I had the following series of thoughts:

1: I have a couple hundred gems and never really need more than a couple dozen; it takes two to track damage with this card.

2: I'm the local Specialist, and have a variety of leftover sleeves from making a few decks for demo games.

3: Nothing solidifies memory like free stuff (trite, but still a mainstay of human nature).

I made a sheet of cards, printed it out, did some cutting and sleeving with cards I did not need. The gem+card lifecounters, of which I now have quite a few, are now in reasonably wide use in the local scene, and make for an excellent freebie after demo sessions.

Finally, the reason this post is in the judge section rather than the Specialist section is that Judges may find it handy (like myself) to print out a number of these cards to add to their judging kit, to make things simple if players show up with no way to track life easily in a tournament.

Cheers,
Corradin

When a Game Loss penalty = Match Loss...

2465615 — Sun, 03 May 2009 10:56:48 GMT

So, I read through the Penalty Guidelines and am studying up for PM2, which I still plan to take at DMF:Boston.

But, as I'm reading through, I find a lof of it is out-dated with regards to World of Warcraft Miniatures. There are a few instances that reference how the rules affect single-match games, but I'm wondering what else one has to be aware of when overseeing play in Minis with one-game matches.

At Charlotte, we skipped the 3 minute late game loss rule, going directlty to a match loss after 10 minutes and showed a little leniency in players making multiple procedural errors. Yet, when the hammer came down, it was after consulting with the head judge Skey and the UDE guy Ian. I can't imagine that I would enjoy ever doing so again, because issuing my first game loss, which upgraded to a match loss, Friday morning due to an improper deck registration, left me hating life as a judge for a while. I brought that hammer down against one of my friends from the forum, but based entirely on the rules and guidelines presented, it had to be done. So yeah, I followed directions, seperate from my feelings about the person.

I just sorta wonder what philosophical changes or addendums are made to the penalty guidelines with regards to Single-Match games like WoW Minis. Right now, I'm left with a lot of open questions from the Penalty Guidelines. Some things are clear/cut, but it's how PE-Minors stack to an eventual game loss or a deck registration form are applied that make me wonder. Yeah, it really makes me wonder.

Feedback?

Cheers!

-teh Sig

Customer Service and Fairness scenario help

893329 — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:18:31 GMT

Hi just wanted to run thru some scenarios to see what other judges would do and to what Alex and level 3’s would rather have us do. I want to know when if ever do you side the penalty and/or downgrade due to a very tight scenario.

I’m not going to say if these scenarios are hypothetical or real but let’s this happen at a competitive level event (Champs or Qualifier). These will be in WOW Tcg scenes.

1. Player A has about half his health left. Player B has one health remaining on his hero (28/29). Its turn 12 in the game. Player B has 6 open resources and 5 cards in hand (Class and cards in hand don’t matter). Player A has 2 cards that say deal 1 damage to target hero, 1 ally, and 1 ongoing ability (don’t matter)in his hand. Player A also has 1 Ally in play that is 3/1. It’s Player A’s turn he readies his cards and says “draw for turn”. Player B says pass/ok. Due to sticky sleeves or whatever player A grabs two cards on his draw doesn’t see and quickly plays one of his deal 1 damage to hero abilities. As he plays the card player A calls judge and says I just noticed I drew and extra card on my draw phase I got excited cause I thought I was about to win. Now as the judge I look at his hand and this is what I see 2 cards that say deal 1 damage to target hero , 2 allies, 1 quest, and 1 ongoing ability. (So no matter what he would have had at least one of these deal 1 damage cards counting the extra card drawn, even if he just drew them both he had his one per turn)

Answer A: I would let him know you did draw an extra card but I would listen to him and look at the game and see he is 1 damage away from winning and he drew the extra card cause he was excited. I would then ask the player b if he was able to stop the 1 damage from the one ability he was trying to play. If player B says no, give the game to player A and give him looking at extra cards and lecture about making sure you are drawing one cards and tips on how to do so.

Answer B: All same but instead of playing an ability he attacks with the ally had in play instead of the ability and then calls judge about drawing the extra card. I would do same as above but ask player B can you stop this attack. Player B says yes. I would then verify that he can and its true he has a stop attack card in hand (Frost shock). Then player A says then I would respond with one of my deal 1 damage cards cause no matter what I would have at least one in his hand. I would then follow with the same conclusion as answer A and give game to player A and give him the lecture and downgraded penalty to warning.

This next scene is about fixing the game and a lying opponent.

2a. Both players have about almost all their health left on their heroes. Its turn 6 in the game. Both players have 4 cards in hand at this point. Player B has 2 ready resources. Player A just started his turn. He says “Draw for turn”and draws. Player B says ok/pass. Then player A says oops I forgot to ready my cards for turn (he then does). Then he says draw for turn and draws the card. Player B then calls judge. I come and player b says my opponent just drew an extra card he did his draw phase twice. I confirm the story above with the players. I ask player A why he did that. He says "I forgot I already drew I was going to call judge myself". I see player A has a quest that says pay 3 and draw a card. I let them know that I maybe able to fix this game and ask player A to use his quest to put its effect on the chain to draw a card. I then ask player B if he will be using something to prevent him from drawing. Player B says no.

Answer 2a : Let the quest finish don’t let him draw the card and consider the game fixed. Give him lecture and downgrade to looking at extra cards.

2b. All same as above but player b says I was going to use something that will stop him from drawing if he used his quest. I would repeat to him “you have a card right now that can do it”? So I tell him to go ahead and play it and I will agree with you that the game is broken due to your opponent drawing and extra card. Player b says I don’t want to show the card cause he drew an extra card and I don’t want him to know what I have for game two. I then check his hand and he does not have a card that can stop the draw. Also I see if player b can draw into a card that can stop the draw. Without letting him see I look at the next couple cards in his deck cause he has a quest that would let him draw 2 cards. No card found can do this. To get to the point he lied to me about being able to stop the draw in order to make sure the game is truly broken and player A gets a lose. I would then give player A the looking at extra card penalty . I would then DQ player B for lying to me when I was trying to fix the game. Lying is a form of cheating and DQ would be proper form of action with him.

Now im trying to keep costumer service strongly in mind here and fairness as to what is going on. In my answers you will see I really believe if you are giving a game loss double check to see if the game is really broken. The only exception to this is illegal deck penalties , as those are pretty cut and dry that your deck was not legal to play with from the start. This is how I would handle these if they came up right now. However I want to see if im thinking the way upperdeck wants me to as in downgrading penalties and fixing games. So if Alex or some more experience judges can tell me where my thinking is wrong if it is and then give some examples as to downgrading and fixing games like these.

Thank you

Small group of players - To/Judging difficult

1395631 — Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:15:42 GMT

The groups that I've started playing with re 5-6 people only... which means with a judge/TO the pool of players of 4 or 5 only.

The rules state that the judge/TO cannot play. I agree with this 100% for large events, etc because of the conflict of interest, however for small groups it really limits the playing potential of the group. Is there any way around this (aside from not sanctioning?) so that small groups don't have this limitation?

What we're doing right now is rotating people through so that it changes the pool up a bit every few weeks.

Any help/suggestions would be appreciated. :)

what do i need for making swiss play?

883110 — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 00:50:01 GMT

i im making a swiss tornament, and i dont know what do i do in a swiss and what do i need, ani help.

please

Onyixa deck check

2166935 — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 01:19:58 GMT

I’m playing in a DMF or higher level event and my opp bust out lady prestor then goes to onyixa. Can I have a judge pause the game and do a deck check? We found out in play testing that you can totally modify your onyxia deck to include more copies of the best cards then what is standard and most likely fly under the radar.

I guess this has been addressed in the past but I couldn’t find the ruling.

Thanks

Phillip

Advice for a New TO and Judge

891177 — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:06:07 GMT

Greetings everyone. My name is Francis Nunziata and I am a relatively new World of Warcraft Miniatures Rules Judge and Tournament Organizer. I have played the game in a few sanctioned and unsanctioned tournaments as well as playing it extensively with active players in my community. Recently, I was reached out to by a store owner to aid them in sanctioning tournaments for their store and judging it. As it is my first exprience in doing so, I wanted to reach out to you all to see what you might be able to provide me for my first time running the tournament and judging it.

I have done my best to keep myself well versed in the Tournament Policies, Penalties (if needed), and most importantly the rules for the game including reading up on the forums and other applicable recommendations through various websites like Metagame, etc.

I have also taken the time to visit a few other retailers in town that host their own sanctioned tournaments, and spoke to the local owners/judges about their experiences and what they do to make it a smooth, and fun game for all.

Is there something else I should be doing or looking for in order to make myself as prepared as possible for this?

Thanks in advance.

-- Francis Nunziata