Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

Bat-Mite, #1 Fan
Character, 8, Arkham Inmates / Fifth Dimension, 18/20
Reservist <p> Insanity: When Bat-Mite enters play, gain the initiative at the start of the next phase. <p> Your opponents can't gain the initiative.

Rogue, Age of Apocalypse
Character, 6, X-Men, 12/12
At the start of the combat phase, choose an opposing character, Rogue gains that character's powers and keywords this turn.



Player A plays Bat-Mite, Player B controls Rogue.  At the start of the combat phase, Rogue targets Bat-Mite with her ability.  What this comes down to is: (a) does Bat-Mite create a delayed trigger that is added to the chain at the start of combat, if Rogue copies Bat-Mite's, the "can't gain the initiative" then the "gain the initiavive" effect disappears.  or  (b)  Bat-Mite has already resolved , at the start of the next phase, it is already Player A's initiative, and if Rogue gains Bat-Mite's ability, it is too late to stop Player A from gaining the initiative.

---

300-021-806
Lvl 2 Yu-Gi-Oh!
Lvl 2 VS judge
Lvl 1 World of Warcraft judge

Two things are going on here:

First, since Rogue gains Bat-Mite's keywords as well as abilities, the player playing Rogue would have to be running an Insanity deck for her to use Bat-Mite's Insanity ability.

Second, since Bat-Mite's ability is a "comes into play" effect, there would be no way for Rogue to use Bat-Mite's ability, since there would be no "comes into play" event to trigger the ability.

Also, to answer the rest of your question; Bat-Mite's comes into play ability triggers when he is recruited (or otherwise brought into play).  When that ability resolves, it then creates a delayed trigger which goes onto the chain at the start of the combat phase (or the next phase, if Bat-Mite comes into play sometime other than in the build phase).  Rogue's ability would also go onto the chain, then the abilities would resolve normally.  Rogue would copy the targeted character, the controller of Bat-Mite would gain the initiative, and play would continue.

Babyarm is correct about not being able to stop Bat-Mite's power with Rogue. The reason for that is because since Bat-Mite's delayed trigger and Rogue both trigger at the start of the combat phase(assuming he was recruited normally, and that Rogue's deck is insanity), then Rogue's player(the player with the initiative) puts her effect on the chain, then Bat-Mite's goes on the chain. Bat-Mite resolves first, stealing the initiative, and then Rogue resolves, but her new power is moot because Bat-Mite's controller already has gained the initiative.

---

Level 2 WoW RK
Level 2 VS RK
Level 2 Specialist (Demo Team)
Level 1 YGO RK
Level 1 PM
Level 1 TO

Unfortunately, two problems with your explanation:

One, Bat-Mite's effect only triggers when he comes into play.  Rogue isn't coming into play when she gains Bat-Mite's ability text, so there's nothing for the trigger to come off of. 

Second, Once Rogue's effect resolves, it is already past the point where "at the beginning of the next phase" effects would trigger.  Even if Rogue was able to steal Bat-Mite's ability to gain the initiative, it wouldn't trigger until the start of the recovery phase.  At that point, as you stated, the player controlling Rogue wouldn't be able to gain the initiative, because of the Bat-Mite's ability.

Also, just to add even more rules text to the equation (and because I'm bored at work):

If Bat-Mite's controller has the initiative:

At the beginning of the combat phase, Bat-Mite's delayed trigger goes onto the chain, followed by Rogue's.  Rogue targets Bat-Mite, and when it resolves, the "Opponent's cannot gain the initiative" text becomes active.  Because Bat-Mite's effect is timestamped earlier, it is applied first, then Rogue's is applied.  When Bat-Mite's effect resolves and attempts to take the initiative, it will be unable to because of Rogue's effect.  However, Bat-Mite's controller already controls the initiative.  Rogue cannot steal the initiative because the "comes into play effect never triggers".  At the end of the turn, the ability that Rogue stole from Bat-Mite disappears, then the initiative attempt to pass to the next player.  Because of Bat-Mite's ability (still active), the initiative does not change, and instead stays with Bat-Mite's controller.

If the player controlling Rogue has the initiative:

At the beginning of the combat phase, Rogue's effect triggers and goes on the chain, followed by Bat-Mite's.  Bat-Mite resolves first and the initiative goes to the player controlling Bat-Mite.  Rogue resolves, and she gains Bat-Mite's abilities.  Since Rogue isn't coming into play, the ability to steal the initiative never triggers (and if it did, it wouldn't happen until the recovery phase).  Bat-Mite's controller has already gained control of the initiative, so Rogue's "Your opponents can't gain the initiative" ability is moot.  At the end of the turn, the ability Rogue stole from Bat-Mite goes away, and initiative tries to pass from Bat-Mite's controller (since they currently hold the initiative), to the next player.  However, Bat-Mite's "Your opponents can't gain the initiative" effect is active, so the initiative stays with Bat-Mite.

Incidentally, this would be a great judge test question.

1146186:

Unfortunately, two problems with your explanation:

One, Bat-Mite's effect only triggers when he comes into play.  Rogue isn't coming into play when she gains Bat-Mite's ability text, so there's nothing for the trigger to come off of. 

Second, Once Rogue's effect resolves, it is already past the point where "at the beginning of the next phase" effects would trigger.  Even if Rogue was able to steal Bat-Mite's ability to gain the initiative, it wouldn't trigger until the start of the recovery phase.  At that point, as you stated, the player controlling Rogue wouldn't be able to gain the initiative, because of the Bat-Mite's ability.

Sorry I wasn't clear. For Bat-Mite, I was referring to the initiative-stealing power. For Rogue, I was referring to the anti-initiative-stealing power.

---

Level 2 WoW RK
Level 2 VS RK
Level 2 Specialist (Demo Team)
Level 1 YGO RK
Level 1 PM
Level 1 TO

as stated before... natmites effect happens when he comes into play... so rouge can not gain initiative... just the words... but she didnt fufill the requiremnts, therefore, she canot gain initiative... even if she did, she loses her power at the start of the next turn, so she cant gain it tilll the combat phase

---

WOOOT

Iam a Cert1 Vs judge