Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

Recently, it came to my attention that some players place more than one resource on a turn. This is especially helpful to players who are ramping up to play a high-cost card, such as Illidan or Gorehowl. A typical scenario plays out thusly:
~On turn 7, Player A draws, then places a resource right away, quietly and unceremoniously. This player may perform 1-2 other actions (such as attacking or completing a quest), then asks Player B, "Did I place a resource? I don't think I did."

Essentially, in SOME cases such as this (sometimes not, as players ARE human and do make mistakes), Player A is checking to see if Player B is paying attention to what's going on, and is prepared to take advantage of Player B in the event they are uncertain.

Now, for this example, let's say Player B has been tracking the resources on paper and is fully aware that Player A placing an additional resource would violate the rule. Here are a few questions:
1) Is Player B's (written) knowledge of the situation public information, and should be announced in order to prevent Player B from breaking P703 - Misrepresenting Information (detailed below)?
2) Let's say Player B responds to Player A's question in a non-committal fashion, such as "If you think you haven't placed a resource yet, you could do so" (or Player A simply says, "You're wrong, Player B; you've skipped placing resources"). Player A then places a resource. Assuming the newly faced down resource is indistinguishable from others in the row, what penalty might apply? Normally, I'd say this sounds like P304 - Failure to Maintain Game State (detailed below), but a face-down resource swap could conceivably occur if the game state is simply corrected by asking Player A to put the extra resource back into their hand.
3) For our scenario, is it safe to rule out that Player A is not violating P702 - Game Object Manipulation (detailed below), since he essentially asked permission to do so from Player B?


P304 Failure to Maintain Game State
This infraction occurs when player’s fail to notice a rules violation committed by their teammate or opponent. Since it is the responsibility of all players to maintain the correct game state, this infraction is usually the counter-part to other Game Error type infractions. This penalty is issued to opponents or teammates that could have noticed the error, but did not.
Judges should not issue this penalty to players that had no opportunity to notice or correct Game Error type infractions. This happens when the error occurs with private information or the error is immediately noticed by a player.
The penalty for Failure to Maintain Game State is a Warning for both Rules Levels.
This penalty should never be upgraded, as it would discourage players that discovered the error from calling a judge.

P702 Game Object Manipulation
This infraction occurs when a player manipulates cards, or game mechanics. This includes, but is not limited to, intentionally drawing extra cards, changing the game state, or marking cards.
Manipulating cards or game mechanics destroys tournament integrity, places unnecessary burden on tournament officials, and creates a negative experience for competitors.
The penalty for Game Object Manipulation is a Disqualification for both Rules Levels.

P703 Misrepresenting Information
This infraction occurs when a player intentionally misrepresents public information to their opponent, or any kind of information to tournament officials. This includes, but is not limited to, omitting damage, misrepresenting rules or policies, misrepresenting an event that happened during the game, and lying to tournament officials.
While bluffing is a component of trading card games, players may not lie about public information to their opponents and may never give incorrect information to tournament officials.
The penalty for Misrepresenting Information is a Disqualification for both Rules Levels.

1338970:

Recently, it came to my attention that some players place more than one resource on a turn. This is especially helpful to players who are ramping up to play a high-cost card, such as Illidan or Gorehowl. A typical scenario plays out thusly: ~On turn 7, Player A draws, then places a resource right away, quietly and unceremoniously. This player may perform 1-2 other actions (such as attacking or completing a quest), then asks Player B, "Did I place a resource? I don't think I did."

Regardless of the remainder, it would probably be a good idea to ask Player A to make more clear to his opponent what he's doing during his turn. This way, if it's an honest mistake, Player A doesn't risk trouble, and if it was intentional, it lets Player A know you're aware of this method of cheating.

Essentially, in SOME cases such as this (sometimes not, as players ARE human and do make mistakes), Player A is checking to see if Player B is paying attention to what's going on, and is prepared to take advantage of Player B in the event they are uncertain.

True. Granted, if Player A was intentionally trying to place extra resources, that probably goes under the cheating catagory, which would at most earn Player B a warning, if even that. Depends.

Now, for this example, let's say Player B has been tracking the resources on paper and is fully aware that Player A placing an additional resource would violate the rule. Here are a few questions: 1) Is Player B's (written) knowledge of the situation public information, and should be announced in order to prevent Player B from breaking P703 - Misrepresenting Information (detailed below)?

Technically, and you'd have to check some of the other topics here, but I think notes don't have to be public. In all honestly, I can't really see why a note regarding resource totals would be problem enough that the player wouldn't be willing to show it publicly. I don't think either way it would fall under P-73 unless he tried to alter the notes to show fewer resources or something like that.

2) Let's say Player B responds to Player A's question in a non-committal fashion, such as "If you think you haven't placed a resource yet, you could do so" (or Player A simply says, "You're wrong, Player B; you've skipped placing resources"). Player A then places a resource. Assuming the newly faced down resource is indistinguishable from others in the row, what penalty might apply?

Well, I would argue that players are supposed to be keeping track of their own resources. Should Player B be keeping track? I think so, it can help in a situation like this, but technically, they don't have to. (At least, I'm assuming since I haven't played/judged much for WoW)

That said, if Player B gave a non-committal answer, I don't really think that violates anything, it was Player A's responsibility to keep track. Now, if there was no doubt Player B knew A already played a resource, that could be a little different. If the answer was again non-committal, I still don't think Player B did anything wrong. Would it be right ethically? Maybe not, but a violation, probably not. Now, if he knew Player A already set one, and told A he didn't, that might be a different situation. Intentionally trying to play an opponent into a violation could potentially fall under the line of un-sporting conduct. Ultimately, I think that depends on how far you want to go with it.

Normally, I'd say this sounds like P304 - Failure to Maintain Game State (detailed below), but a face-down resource swap could conceivably occur if the game state is simply corrected by asking Player A to put the extra resource back into their hand.

That it could, which is why there's little grey area in game state violations. If you can't reasonably determine which card was the extra, then typically Player A would receive a game loss under the Playing Extra Cards penalty guidelines.

3) For our scenario, is it safe to rule out that Player A is not violating P702 - Game Object Manipulation (detailed below), since he essentially asked permission to do so from Player B

That all depends on what your investigation turns up. p702 is moreso about intent then actions. If you investigate and feel that Player A just made an honest mistake, then no, you wouldn't usually hit him with P702. If you investigated and have reason to believe he was to play the extra resource intentionally, then yes, p702 would be an available option.

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Go Player ~ 22 Kyu

Notes taken during a match are public, though they don't have to be understandable.

The penalties given to the players should be based on the intent rather than on what is done. Even if player A doesn't place a resource but asks if he already put one during his turn in order to place two instead of one, it is falling under game manipulation. The same goes for player B misrepresenting information, that would fall in the corresponding penalty. However it is truly hard to know whether the player made an error honestly or not, since even experimented players make this mistake during matches.
If such a mistake is made, and the judge thinks that both players made an honest mistake, then player B would take a warning for failure to maintain game state (non upgradable except under exceptionnal circumstances) and player A a warning for Game rules error (upgraded to another warning the second time, then normally upgraded afterwards), there is no "playing extra cards" penalty. If players both know which resource was placed, and the mistake was done recently the resource is returned to it's owner's hand. If they don't know which one was placed, it will be left.

2279490:

there is no "playing extra cards" penalty. If players both know which resource was placed, and the mistake was done recently the resource is returned to it's owner's hand. If they don't know which one was placed, it will be left.

Unless this has changed very recently, the procedure in the past was always if an extra card is drawn/played, if the specific card can be determined, then you rewind the game to before the card was drawn/played and issue a warning. If you cannot, a game loss is issued. The exact guideline might not have been "Playing extra cards" but I'm still fairly certain on this situation.

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Go Player ~ 22 Kyu

There is a "Drawing extra cards" penalty that does exist, but I can't find anything talking about the described situation, so the penalty would be "Game Rules Error" since it includes all mistakes that are not included in other penalties.
It was probably the case in the older version, but not in the current one, that has been completely modified.

Eh, fair enough. Haven't really read through the newer rules as closely, so, you're probably right.

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Go Player ~ 22 Kyu