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I've not seen a single lick of official ruling about the interaction between Prime Material Dragon and Reficul/Bad Reaction to Simochi. I've heard everything from they both activate once in a chain, to they go in an infinite loop, to they don't do anything. So, what is the real deal?

I tend to lean towards that they do nothing, for one of two reasons: either it DOES cause an infinite loop, and thus cannot be done regardless, or it's the same as using one Reverse Trap to reverse another Reverse Trap's reversal of ATK/DEF gain/loss, ie. the second Reverse Trap won't do anything (just like the ATK/DEF gain/loss would just reset to how it was before either Reverse Trap was activated, the life points of whichever player(s) was affected by the PMD/BRtS/Reficul chain would reset to how it was before the chain was initiated, making both combos moot).

that is because there is no official ruling on the issue.  take what you can from the discussions, and decide how you would rule it.  at the moment, this is a head judge call.

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You haven't seen a lick of an official ruling because there is none yet.  Frank has mentioned how supposedly R&D has ruled it and told the judges how to rule it at premier events (just use the search feature, this point has been brought up I don't know how many times).  This is about as much as I'm going to comment on this issue.

1510038:

that is because there is no official ruling on the issue.  take what you can from the discussions, and decide how you would rule it.  at the moment, this is a head judge call.

Wasn't there an official consensus amongst Frank and the other RK3s that they only turn the damage once from now on? as to avoid the infinite loop problem?

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idk, there are to many threads to go looking thru.  even so, it is still up to the head judge.

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With each kill, I grow wiser, with added wisdom, I grow stronger...

Yugioh! TCG Rules Knowledge Level 1
Player Management: Level 1

I'm so happy 'cuz im a Gummy Bear... Gummy Bear!

The general consensus is that each effect only activates once.

With that being said, general consensus does not = official.

Case in point - Prohibition.

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It's not even a general consensus.  I have yet to see anything resembling a consensus on how this interaction should be ruled.  There are two distinct camps on the ruling.  While Frank has given us R&D's interpretation on it, that is not official and does not follow similar rulings.

The only way to be sure on how this will be ruled for the time being is to ask the head judge.  With that being said, it is probably a bad idea to rely on it being ruled any specific way.

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No offense, but the lack of official ruling on this matter, and UDE's decision to leave it to the head judge seems really, REALLY stupid, in my opinion; what if one head judge rules it one way, but the next tournament you go to the head judge there rules it the other? That sort of confusion isn't good for the game, people.

Besides, like I said, it makes more sense to use the ruling for Reverse Trap as a basis for this ruling (since it's the only card in the game with an effect and ruling that is similar to this situation). Think about it: Reverse Trap can't be used on itself, because Reverse Trap reverses the ATK/DEF gain/loss from a card effect, so a second Reverse Trap would reset the ATK/DEF of the monsters affected by the first Reverse Trap to how they were originally; everything is back how it was, hence it's a pointless move and you can't do it. Similarly, trying to chain Prime Material Dragon to Reficul/BRtS and vice-versa shouldn't work, since after one reverses the other's reversal of your life point gain/damage, your LP go right back to where they started, as if the combo never happened; again, a pointless move, in that case.

first.  the reason konami hasn't ruled it yet, is because prime material dragon is a tcg exclusive and they don't have to deal with it in the ocg at the moment.

second. your 'ruling' for reverse trap is not correct.

UDE FAQ: Reverse Trap:

Additional "Reverse Traps" activated in the same turn will have no effect.So "Reverse Trap" will change "Axe of Despair'"s effect of adding 1000 ATK to subtracting 1000 ATK.If a second "Reverse Trap" is activated, the equipped monster still has -1000 ATK.

third.  prime material , reficul, bad reaction, don't use the chain.

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With each kill, I grow wiser, with added wisdom, I grow stronger...

Yugioh! TCG Rules Knowledge Level 1
Player Management: Level 1

I'm so happy 'cuz im a Gummy Bear... Gummy Bear!

1510038:

first.  the reason konami hasn't ruled it yet, is because prime material dragon is a tcg exclusive and they don't have to deal with it in the ocg at the moment.

second. your 'ruling' for reverse trap is not correct.

UDE FAQ: Reverse Trap:

Additional "Reverse Traps" activated in the same turn will have no effect.So "Reverse Trap" will change "Axe of Despair'"s effect of adding 1000 ATK to subtracting 1000 ATK.If a second "Reverse Trap" is activated, the equipped monster still has -1000 ATK.

third.  prime material , reficul, bad reaction, don't use the chain.

Did you even read what I was saying? Obviously not, from your post.

First, I never said that I was asking for Konami's ruling, because I KNOW that Prime Material Dragon is a TCG exclusive (or, at least, it was; it was just released in the OCG in their first Extra Pack). What made you think that I was under the impression that Konami was ruling on this instead of UDE? I even mentioned that UDE ruled that it was up to the discretion of the head judges to decide how the situation would resolve, so that should have told you that I was asking UDE for a definitive ruling on this, NOT Konami.

Second, that is EXACTLY what I meant when I was talking about Reverse Trap's ruling; the ruling was obviously put into place to prevent people from trying to reverse the reverse of ATK/DEF gain/loss by another Reverse Trap, since it would just reset the monsters' stats back to how they were before (making the whole combo a moot and useless point), so OF COURSE more than one Reverse Trap wouldn't have an effect. Prime Material Dragon/Reficul/Bad Reaction to Simochi is JUST LIKE Reverse Trap, except they deal with LP gain/damage instead of ATK/DEF gain/loss, so it makes the most sense that the ruling would work with them, as well.

Finally, it doesn't matter if they chain or not; the situation with Prime Material Dragon vs. Reficul/BRtS is exactly like the situation with two Reverse Traps, so the ruling for them should be the same, as well.

Alternatively, if you don't like that idea, how about this: since it WOULD go in an endless loop, then it should follow the rulings for Pole Position in regards to infinite loops. Pole Position has these general guidelines when it comes to infinite loops with it: you CANNOT voluntarily activate a card effect if you know it'll start an infinite loop, and if an infinite loop is started through a game mechanic, then the source of the loop will be negated and destroyed before the loop is initiated. So, with the Prime Material Dragon/Reficule/BRtS situation, this should translate into: you cannot activate/summon Prime Material Dragon while Reficule/BRtS is on the field and vice-versa, if both manage to be on the field together, neither player can activate LP gain/damage effects, and if an LP gain/damage effect is activated due to a game mechanic while both are on the field, it's negated and destroyed. Or, if you need a diagram:

1. I have Prime Material Dragon on the field. My opponent thus cannot summon Reficule or activate BRtS, because then the basis for an LP gain/damage infinite loop is in place, and you cannot voluntarily play a card that you know will cause such an infinite loop.

2. If both cards are somehow able to be on the field at the same time, neither player can activate an LP gain or damage card effect (like Rain of Mercy or Final Flame), because that will start an infinte LP gain/damage loop between PMD and Reficule/BRtS.

3. If a game mechanic activates an LP gain/damage card effect while both cards are on the field (like having Granadora be destroyed), then the LP gain/damage card effect is negated and the card destroyed, because it would again start an LP gain/damage infinite loop between PMD and Reficule/BRtS.

So, either way, we've got two solid existing card rulings that would make deciding what happens when PMD and Reficule/BRtS clash a breeze, but UDE is purposely refusing to make such a decision, and is shunting it off to the judges to make their own judgment on it, something that I've already explained is very, VERY bad (differences in opinion over how it's judged form tournament to tournament would cause confusion and arguments, disrupting the tournament more than the situation should).

864951:

No offense, but the lack of official ruling on this matter, and UDE's decision to leave it to the head judge seems really, REALLY stupid, in my opinion; what if one head judge rules it one way, but the next tournament you go to the head judge there rules it the other? That sort of confusion isn't good for the game, people.

It is not UDE's decision to not give a ruling.  They are waiting for an official ruling themselves and cannot make an actual official ruling for it until Konami chooses to do so.

Besides, like I said, it makes more sense to use the ruling for Reverse Trap as a basis for this ruling (since it's the only card in the game with an effect and ruling that is similar to this situation). Think about it: Reverse Trap can't be used on itself, because Reverse Trap reverses the ATK/DEF gain/loss from a card effect, so a second Reverse Trap would reset the ATK/DEF of the monsters affected by the first Reverse Trap to how they were originally; everything is back how it was, hence it's a pointless move and you can't do it. Similarly, trying to chain Prime Material Dragon to Reficul/BRtS and vice-versa shouldn't work, since after one reverses the other's reversal of your life point gain/damage, your LP go right back to where they started, as if the combo never happened; again, a pointless move, in that case.

Your mental faculties are flawed on that.  That would be like saying you can chain 2 "Dark Deal" cards to your opponent's spell card and discard 2 cards from your hand.  You cannot.

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107-744-616
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By your logic then, playing Level Limit - Area B while Final Attack Orders is active with Goblin Attack Force on the field would result in an infinite loop and couldn't be done, oh but they made a ruling for how to handle that. *cough*

Seriously though, the definitive rulings come from Konami though UDE is allowed to input how they feel it should be ruled.  This is something that has been mentioned before and I don't see any reason why that would be changed.  The fact that Prime Material Dragon was a TCG Exclusive card means nothing.  When rulings came down for Grandmaster of the Six Samurai when that card was first released ultimately those would have come from Konami or at least have had their approval.  Obviously though the OCG didn't have that card at the time.  So until some sort of official ruling can be done, the people in charge over here are doing the next best thing by trying to have a concensus on how it should be ruled and tell the people running the large events to rule it that way.  Is it perfect?  Not really.  Will everyone agree with the concensus?  Not really.  Is it better than just having everyone rule it according to their opinion?  Probably.  Will everyone like that?  No.

Personally, I have my opinions and disagree with the general concensus on how they want to rule it.  Great, I can add that to the discussion if I want to (though I've given up this fight a long time ago) and you've expressed your opinions on things.  Great, you've added another possible way to view it.  Past all of this though, ultimately it will come down to the way the HJ rules it at an event until the official ruling comes out.  They're doing what they can to get the HJs to rule things the same way.  However, without it spelled out it it becomes like any other ruling your HJ must make without things spelled out: their judgment call.

842510:

864951:

No offense, but the lack of official ruling on this matter, and UDE's decision to leave it to the head judge seems really, REALLY stupid, in my opinion; what if one head judge rules it one way, but the next tournament you go to the head judge there rules it the other? That sort of confusion isn't good for the game, people.

It is not UDE's decision to not give a ruling.  They are waiting for an official ruling themselves and cannot make an actual official ruling for it until Konami chooses to do so.

Besides, like I said, it makes more sense to use the ruling for Reverse Trap as a basis for this ruling (since it's the only card in the game with an effect and ruling that is similar to this situation). Think about it: Reverse Trap can't be used on itself, because Reverse Trap reverses the ATK/DEF gain/loss from a card effect, so a second Reverse Trap would reset the ATK/DEF of the monsters affected by the first Reverse Trap to how they were originally; everything is back how it was, hence it's a pointless move and you can't do it. Similarly, trying to chain Prime Material Dragon to Reficul/BRtS and vice-versa shouldn't work, since after one reverses the other's reversal of your life point gain/damage, your LP go right back to where they started, as if the combo never happened; again, a pointless move, in that case.

Your mental faculties are flawed on that.  That would be like saying you can chain 2 "Dark Deal" cards to your opponent's spell card and discard 2 cards from your hand.  You cannot.

Dude, that's exactly what I'm saying: you CAN'T do that. Why are you guys continue to say that I'm saying you CAN do that?

Let me see if I can put this in small words so you can understand it. Both Prime Material Dragon and either Reficule or Bad Reaction to Simochi are on the field. My opponent or I activates say...Hinotama, dealing 500 LP of damage to the opponent. PMD would kick in, turning that damage into 500 LP of gain. But then, Reficule/Simochi triggers, turning the reversal of damage PMD caused back into damage. So, either Reficule/Simochi cancels out PMD, and you end up taking the 500 damage from Hinotama as if neither card was on the field, or you gain LP then lose the same amount of LP, meaning the opponent's LP DO NOT CHANGE. Either way, the situation would produce a moot end event.

Now let's look at Reverse Trap; it's essentially a combination of Reficule/Simochi and PMD but for ATK/DEF alterations. So, say I equip my monster with Axe of Despair, and my opponent chains Reverse Trap to it; now that 1000 ATK gain is turned into a 1000 ATK loss. If I chained a second Reverse Trap, and IF that second Reverse Trap did anything, then all it would do is either negate the ATK gain-to-loss effect of the first Reverse Trap (meaning my monster still gains the 1000 ATK, as if neither Reverse Trap was activated), or my monster would lose 1000 ATK from the first Reverse Trap, then gain back that 1000 ATK fromt he second (meaning my monster's ATK doesn't change from how it was before I equipped it with Axe of Despair until the end of the turn).

See where I'm getting at, here? A second or third Reverse Trap does nothing to the reversal of ATK/DEF gain/loss from the first one according to its ruling, probably to prevent this kind of unproductive wasting of cards.

And here's another thing I just thought of that further boosts the theory that PMD vs Reficule/Simochi shouldn't happen; technically, neither of those cards CAUSE the player to lose or gain LP. Instead, they merely CONVERT LP damage or gain into the other. I forgot which card it was, but I distinctly remember seeing a ruling for a card that also converts LP or ATK/DEF gain/loss to its opposite, stating you couldn't chain a card that would negate the gain/loss to it, since the card itself only CONVERTS the gain into loss and vice-versa, and is not inflicting the loss/gain, itself. So, technically, PMD vs. Reficule/Simochi shouldn't even be an issue, because neither can be triggered by the other; they don't inflict the damage or life point gain themselves, they just conver it from another card effect.

The reason why 2 "Reverse Trap" cards don't interact is because while you can activate multiple in the same turn (no law against it), they will only create a state where the original card text of Increase becomes Decrease and original card text of Decrease becomes Increase.

However your thoughts on Converting are incorrect due to the ruling on Rainbow Life Vs Bad Reaction to Simochi, which states an effect that is originally:
Burn -> Gain -> Burn = Stop.

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107-744-616
Circle of Tragedy Duels
YGORK2, PM1, TO1
UDE May Use My Card Ideas At Will!
EVERYTHING I SAY IS PERSONAL OPINION
Prepare for the coming Global Crisis

1858158:

By your logic then, playing Level Limit - Area B while Final Attack Orders is active with Goblin Attack Force on the field would result in an infinite loop and couldn't be done, oh but they made a ruling for how to handle that. *cough*

You mean the "first card priority" ruling, right? The one that says "Whichever card was on the field first takes priority"? Yeah, I've heard of that, and ironically, that's another opinion that I've heard on how this situation should be handled: whichever card between PMD and Reficule/Simochi was on the field first when the other is summoned/activated takes precedence, and is the only card among the two that will have its effect activate and stick.

Honestly, I'm just baffled why it's taking so long for UDE or Konami or whoever has the final say to make a definitive ruling on this. I would've hoped that, once the OCG got their copy of Prime Material Dragon in their Extra Pack, they'd be quick to hammer out a ruling for it, but apparently not. Plus, there really ISN'T a consensus over how it should be resolved; every person I've talked to about this has their own opinion on it, so leaving it up to the head judges really isn't going to do anything.