At what point are you locked into acction in this game? For example I pck up a figure and goto move it then change my mind. Can I move a different figure instead (on the same tics) Or I pick up my figure move in somewhere then declare an attack but before I roll any dice change my mind, is this too late to attack a different figure?

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Has made top8 of some events

There's nothing on the policies document about a situation like this.
The thing most near it in the rules is this:

500.4 Check whether any personal clocks match the master clock.
500.4a If none do, the tick ends by following 501.4.
500.4b If only one does, that character takes the next turn.
500.4c If more than one does:
· If those characters belong to the same player, that player chooses which of them takes the next turn.
· If those characters belong to different players, the first of those players to the left of the turn player
chooses a character he or she controls among those characters to take the next turn. In the case of a
team game, teams are considered to be a single “player” for purposes of this rule.

I think choosing a character is already stating you're going to act with it and that should "lock" it.
I would let you change your mind and act with another character if you haven't done anything with your first character.
However, if you have already moved it and anounced an attack, I wouldn't let you change your mind.
I don't know what would a judge say, should I complain.
I haven't found this situation yet.
I suppose they will implement a rule in the policies document if players complain of people trying to confuse things by changing the miniature they want to play with now, after having moved and played an ability for another.



... And I still hate birds! 8-)

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The only thing I win is honor...

This is something that should have been in the tournament policy documents. I'll chalk it up to UDE's inexperience with miniatures games. Dreamblade had such policies defined in its documents.

I don't have any power over how judges rule in this matter, but my suggestions would be:

a) once you've announced that a mini is activated, that can't be taken back

That's just the way turn order is defined in this game, I'm pretty sure that judges would rule this way

Chess Rules:
b) once you've picked up a mini, this announces a movement, and you have to do it (I'd defined 'pick up' as taking the mini and physically taking it off the board... just brushing it or announcing you're taking it to reposition it correctly in its hex shouldn't be a binding action).

c) once you've set down a mini and let go of it, that means end of movement and you can't take it back. However, as long as you don't let go of the mini, movement shouldn't be set in stone.

These are mostly so people won't try to play cheaty games of 'pick up the mini and set it back down on the wrong hex so I get to move more than 2 hexes in this turn'. It gets easier to confuse where a mini was originally located once it's been moved about 3-4 times.

Common sense rules:

d) Once you've ticked up your mini for an action, or paid any costs needed for an action/instant, it's binding.

e) Any dice roll makes it a binding action (for Instants or in cases where someone made a technical violation of procedure and started rolling his attack before ticking his mini).

f) Exausting a card is considered binding once the card has been let go off in the exhausted position.

g) Simple verbal announcement of an action is NON binding, as long as no cost has yet been paid and no dice were rolled.

h) A target for an attack is binding once cost has been paid/dice have been rolled.

i) Any impossible action is non-binding. Example: attacking Ruby if Gorebelly is adjacent to you (Taunt). Ruby is an illegal target, so even if someone already ticked up, the person is allowed a takeback. (However, I'm pretty sure that a judge would give a warning for violation of game procedure.) In contrast, someone attacking at range a Ruby who's adjacent to Wilton Thorne would NOT get a takeback if the other person announced Protector, since by the time the opponent declares Protector the decision to attack was binding.

Some people might disagree with my belief that Taunt should allow a takeback. I'll say that if Taunt was worded like Protector, in that the target is redirected, then I'd agree. But in fact Taunt only talks about which targets are legal. There's no "gotcha" element to Taunt at all, attacks against someone else are not being redirected they are simply impossible to declare. If someone declares an impossible attack and you don't correct them before they tick up (or at least as soon as  possible, if they're really quick to tick up their mini before you even had a chance to react to their announcing their action) you're misrepresenting game state.

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"The beatings will continue until morale has improved."
- Standard corporate management technique

Some people might disagree with my belief that Taunt should allow a takeback. I'll say that if Taunt was worded like Protector, in that the target is redirected, then I'd agree. But in fact Taunt only talks about which targets are legal.

BB you should review section 703 for playing abilities.

Playing an ability follows a defined sequence of steps. 

Step 1 ( 703.1a ) announce the ability and reveal its source ( if it is a face down ABC )

Step 2 (703.1b) make any modal decisions ( such as deciding if Vashj's attack is physical or magic )

Step 3 (703.1c) pick targets

Step 4, 5,6,7,8 yada yada yada

Repairing the game state for an invalid target due to taunt seems to me like it should only back you up to the last legal state, which would be when you made modal decisions ( if any ) or to just after announcing the ability if there were no modal decisions.

If you as a player say "I'm attacking Fillet" when Fillet and the attacker is standing next to Victoria then you have commited two errors.  One is punishable by a warning, while the other is just an example of improper play.  The punishable error is picking an invalid target in 703.1c.  Receive a warning and repair the game state by backing up to 703.1b where you must pick a new legal target.  The error that isn't punishable but is an example of playing wrong is trying to combine 703.1a and 703.1c into the same step.  The player is trying to 'cheat' ( usually unintentionally ) the steps by combining announcing the attack and picking a target so that if the target is wrong they get to rewind before the attack.  According to the documentation I'm looking at players shouldn't be allowed to do that.  Seems like its proceedural play warning minor for picking an invalid target and back up to 703.1b.

And here I am, having heard in my limited high-tier minis playing experience that minis is nothing like "chess" rules, and that it's fine to pick it up, change your mind, put it back, chose to take a different minis move that turn.

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lamepoon ...
lamepoon! lamepoon! lamepoon!

Well right now that's true, but I think that's BS and that I hope UDE realizes it before some high profile match ends up being decided by who gets to convince the judge of where that mini was before someone decided to pick, put back, move, put back, pick up again...

Chess tournaments didn't decide to play by these rules just because. It's about finding ways to minimize on cheating and mind games.

Now, at BG I think you shouldn't have to play this seriously, but DMF? Absolutly.

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"The beatings will continue until morale has improved."
- Standard corporate management technique

Great question.

I know UDE likes chess rules for the TCG, so I would assume the same for minis.

As long as you don't take your hand off the piece I see no reason why you can't cancel the movement and choose another mini that was going on that same tick.  What harm has been done to the game state?  None.  Is it possible for someone to abuse this to gain an unfair advantage? Not that I can see.

In regards to playing abilities, in the TCG you could (for the most part) change your mind until a card was fully played, so (703.1f) for minis.

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Level 3 - WoW TCG Rules Knowledge
Level 2 - Player Management



Texas TCG Players

This game has a react mechanic which throws a monkey into the chess rules idea.  Currently there isn't a react 'yet' that allows you to play it when an enemy moves, but when/if there is then touch move becomes a serious issue.  Players should get use to verbal annoucements to avoid confusion.  Things don't happen unless you announce they are happening regardless of touching a piece or not.  If a player tries to blow past a react window by not announcing their action then a judge should back up the game ( and probably issue a warning ) to just after when the offending player should have announced their action and prior to the action taking place to give the opponent a chance to react to it.

I can guarantee you that movement of the piece will follow chess rules.
UDE seems consistent in this and it's player friendly.

In regards to reacts, the TCG has far more "react" style situations as it uses a chain to resolve effects. This isn't a problem because both players have to pass on each link before an effect resolves.  It''s the same thing for minis - the react window doesn't close until both people pass (701.2).  You can simply wait until the player fully plays the ability (703.1f) or attempts to resolve it to play your react.  I say "attempt to resolve" as some people play fast without following the steps and attempting to resolve the ability is a logical indication that you intended to play it. 

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Level 3 - WoW TCG Rules Knowledge
Level 2 - Player Management



Texas TCG Players

I can guarantee you that movement of the piece will follow chess rules.

Well unfortunate that guarantee isn't worth very much right now.  We know it doesn't work this way at high level events now, and the tournament guidelines don't have anything about touch move or take backs if you are still touching the piece, in them.

What do you mean by

UDE seems fairly consistent in this

Can you give examples of chess rules they have gone by in the past?

Trying to equate reacts in the TCG to reacts in the CMG is not a good example.  In the TCG you play something or you don't.  There is no pick up a piece, move it to a square, think about while your pinky finger is still touching the piece, etc.  Completely different.  The react window can open due to anything, and it is fairly atypical to verbally state every possible react window and explicitly pass on it.  Do you verbally say "Begining of tick 2, pass on react window.  Turn Characters start of turn, pass on react window, moving turn character, pass on react window, entering first space, pass on react window, leaving first space pass on react window...etc."  The fact is that by simply moving a character 2 spaces you have blown past upwards of a dozen potential react windows.  "Moving", "entering space"x2, "leaving spacex2" "entering adjacency"x2", "leaving adjaceny x2", "entering adjacency with two or more enemy characters"x2, etc.  We will never be able to explicitly pass on each and every react window.  Its just not possible.  So there has to be a concrete mechanism in place for 'backing' up before a passed react window, and what defines an action happening vs what doesn't.  Still touching a piece might work, but I find it inadequate in some respects.  Verbally stating "I'm moving elendril from here to here"  also blows past react windows but at least you have an explicit statement you can use to make your case to the judge to back up to the window that was passed. 

Its too easy to get into "My opponent moved into this space so I played this react, but he says he was still touching it so I couldn't play my card" scenarios if you allow take backs on movement.  Maybe thats okay, but I don't think its as cut and dry as you make it.

1811756:

well unfortunate that guarantee isn't worth very much right now.  We know it doesn't work this way at high level events now, and the tournament guidelines don't have anything about touch move or take backs if you are still touching the piece, in them.

how is it currently ruled in high level events and by whom?

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Level 3 - WoW TCG Rules Knowledge
Level 2 - Player Management



Texas TCG Players

To give an example from DMF Koln:

Player X and Player Y

Player X had a Thangal in Bear Form with one life left. That player physically removed his Form from on top of his Thangal, annouced a Wrath attack, and rolled dice.

I believe Player Y took an action then realized that game state had been f'ed up. Thangal should have died when he jumped out of form.

The Judge ruled that since Player X never announced verbally that he was leaving Form, that that was where game state was first broken. The game was 'backed up' to the point where Player X should have said he wanted to come out of form. However, now that he realized his error, of course he didn't want to, and was allowed to take another action.

This is all to say that VERBAL commands are requiered to lock something into place. It creates funny anti-Vashj when they forget to announce which type of attack they were doing. They will have to rewind their roll and do it again. Funny, but necessary. If the other player has to ask which type of attack it is, suddenly the first player is hyper aware of counterspell and/or earth shock.

Same deal, if the second player has to ask if you are moving a figure, then the first player is hyper aware of the possibility of some (as yet unpresent) reacct abc that gimps movement.

I would like to, but would not consider touching a piece either activating it or moving it. Not until they have annouced such, at least.

If they decide to pick up a piece and move it without annoucing it, I would allow it. At the end of the movement, I'd say, "moving there?" When they reply "yes," I'd let them know they didn't annouce they were moving their figure and force them to back up so that I can play my react.

I would hope a judge would see that if I had said something earlier, I am tipping my hat so to speak.

-c 

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http://myworld.ebay.com/corle2/

I don't think comparing it to the TCG is really a good idea as there aren't exaclty pieces to touch to start with.

In the TCG if you exaust your resources then change your mind on what to play you aren't forced into doing something, you could just ready them and pass.

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Has made top8 of some events

Stu,

I really hope that you know that the correct order to do things in the TCG is to annouce the card you are playing, and THEN exhaust the resources for it. Right?

Cheers.

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Come play at C & Js in Newark, CA

1161772:

I can guarantee you that movement of the piece will follow chess rules. UDE seems consistent in this and it's player friendly.

Overdog,

I'm not so sure that I see the evidence that the TCG uses chess rules in its tournament procedures. Can you give examples?

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The hands of a healer