It is game 2 and the score is 1-0 for my opponent, using runetusk wand lock i managed to lock the opponent with 3 minutes remaining and my opponent is at full health (warrior 30 health). Can he refuse to concede, making me keep striking 1 damage per turn just to stall time? Or can I declare I won the match immediately since I already established a lock?

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Trolls are the new Black Mon!

Your opponent is not ever obligated to concede; he can force you to deal fatal damage or kill him in some other way. You should call a judge to prevent him from stalling on his own turn in such a scenario, but he can make you attack until the game is over.

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Glenn Jones

Season 2 Feralas Realm Champion

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thanks for the prompt answer.
I think the rules should be updated on this one, stating that when a player establishes a complete lock, then he is declared winner.
what do you think?

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Trolls are the new Black Mon!

I think the definition of lock is very difficult to establish.

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Isgee is, by definition, correct.
-Vash, VSRealms

I think there is already a rule regarding this - for loops. I guess you can regard such a "lock" situation, where one player does not have any options left as a loop involving optional options.

803.2 If a loop involves one or more optional actions, one full iteration must first be performed. Then, the player that performed the first optional action in that loop must choose a number. Then, starting with the next player clockwise, any other player that performed an optional action in that loop may choose a smaller number. The smallest number chosen (X) is the number of additional times the loop starts, ending just before the first optional action of the player that chose X is performed for the Xth additional time. Then, the player who chose X gets priority. The next action taken can’t be the action that would continue that loop.

As only one player that is part of the loop does have optional actions (attacking with Runetusk and striking with the wand) he is the only one to say a number. So he could instantly kill his opponent by just saying 30.

However I am not sure if a loop that goes over turns can be regarded as a loop.

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While Loops wouldn't be applicable in this scenario, if you are the only one with legal moves, you shouldn't have to wait for your opponent, and it should be assumed that every priority window they get is always passed.  If you think your opponent is stalling a judge should be called immediately.  You still need to go through the process of paying costs for the wand and attacking, drawing cards for the turn and cleaning up your hand as usual, these steps can not be assumed like loops.

Your opponent is not required to give the game to you if you have them in a lock, but the pace of a game should increase significantly after one player is in a hard lock.

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Could you explain why you think that Loops are not appliable?

From reading the one and a half year old thread about a similar situation I think this could be thought of as a loop.

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/wow/community/forums/1/649396/ShowThread.aspx

The definition is the following:

803.1 Sometimes a game state occurs in which a series of actions could be repeated indefinitely. This section deals with such "loops."

Is this not the case here?

We could even advance this situation to a mirror of two Runetusks/Bloodtusks that lead to no player having a card in his hand, but both having a Voidfire Wand and a Renew on their hero.

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German Community Forum
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This is not considered a loop. A loop generally consists of a series of actions that can be repeated indefinitely during a particular phase in the game. If you can complete a series of actions again and again, on the same turn, that is considered a loop.

By your logic, every turn is a loop because each turn goes through the same steps. Thats not the case.

His opponent could still react to anything his opponent does. Perhaps he has a card on board? Maybe he could use his hero flip? There are still priority windows that your opponent has the chance to respond to, even if he has nothing to respond with.

I strongly disagree with allowing players to win a game through a lock like voidfire. Yes its a lock, but you still have to win the game by either doing fatal damage or making him draw from an empty library. What you need to consider with respect to time, is how fast you and your opponent played in the first game. If there were scenarios where you knew you were going to lose, but decided to keep on playing, there is a mistake right there. You, as a player, need to recognize how much time is remaining and to play at a respectable pace.

 

While the scenario listed above is certainly possible, there are several conditions that each player must understand. Is this game 1 of the match? Is playing until time run out beneficial for you or the opposite? There will be a winner of that game and it is because the time limit is called. The person with the most damage on their hero at the end of the third turn of overtime wins the game (unless its not the first or third game of a match). If life totals are tied after that turn, play continues until any change in life totals occurs. (Such as healing with Renew).

~Deathfist

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If one player has Voidfire wand and the other player has no cards/quests and flip power that is relevant for the situation, the other player should scoop. There is no way for him to win the game and there is no reason for him to stall. Its simple as that. Whoever wants to do stalling in this scenario is complete jerk.

924401:

If one player has Voidfire wand and the other player has no cards/quests and flip power that is relevant for the situation, the other player should scoop. There is no way for him to win the game and there is no reason for him to stall. Its simple as that. Whoever wants to do stalling in this scenario is complete jerk.

I disagree.  As was mentioned previously, if you know your win depends on getting a lock you need to make sure that you leave enough time after game 1 to win game 2.  How did this get to time?  Did your opponent have game 1 but you prolonged it because he had to win?  There is no obligation to concede at any point in time.  The voidfire lock situation described is just a clear example of a game that you would have won had time not been an issue, but since time IS an issue I hope you have some allies to start dropping that can speed things up.

There is a way for him to win. And the only out that is, is if time runs out before you can kill him. Since he won the first game he does NOT have to scoop to you. You still have to win the game and just because you have a voidfire wand lock on him doesn't mean you've won the game. Your opponent doesn't have to win the game, he only has to stop you from winning.

How much time do you consider your opponent to have before its considered stalling? 10 Seconds? 30 Seconds? Instantly?

Try putting yourself in your opponents shoes and I bet you'd use the same strategy.

~DF

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It seems rather unsportsmanlike to push the timer when you know your opponent is going to win the current game.

Your actions can be simplified easily, however: make a small stack of the cards you're exhausting during your turn to attack (hero, weapon, resources for the strike cost... I'm assuming that's all you use, although I may be mistaken).  On your turn, don't ready those cards, instead draw your card, tap the exhausted cards and say "Attacking", then pitch the card you drew into the graveyard and say go.  Takes all of 2 seconds.  If your opponent repeatedly asks you to stop, I'd threaten to call a judge: there should be nothing new for them to consider, so no reason to stop the game.

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If you're talking about a situation where he has nothing in play, no quests to complete, and you've locked him with VFW, then it should only take a few seconds for him to say 'go' after his turn. Anything more would be considered stalling. If he has got stuff in play, or quests to complete, then you haven't got a total lock and his turn can take a reasonable amount of time.

Cheers.

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I just wanted to step in on this topic to point out one thing: no matter how tight the lock, there is one action the opponent will always be able to take.  Unless you constantly keep a "can't attack modifier" on their hero, he can always attack your hero with his.  Even if he has no weapons in play or no way of increasing his hero's ATK, it's a legal play.  And as long as you don't have a ready Protector out so he won't accrue extra damage, it's actually a smart play to eat up more time.

It all boils down to this: there is never a time in a Game, for any reason, where a player is obligated or forced to concede.  It is perfectly within their right to continue gameplay and force their opponent to play it out and win either through fatal damage or forcing their opponent to deck out.  Consider a scenario where the person with the VFW lock may just have fewer cards in his deck than the number of damage he needs to deal, putting him in a situation where he could deck out before winning the game.  This could mean a win for his opponent if they play it out rather than just conceding.

The point is, it is not unsportsmanlike or ill-mannered in any way to force the game to be played out.  In some situations it's just plain playing smart, especially in situations like this where time is an issue.  Maybe in a different situation it's not two or three minutes left in the round, but only one.

So when you get down to it, the player should still be playing at a relatively fast pace (even faster if they have almost no moves to make) and if they are taking too long a Judge should be called to investigate Slow Play or possibly Stalling (remember that there is a difference between the two infractions).  But that doesn't mean that they can't run time down by forcing the game to play out and under no condition where they MUST concede.

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if the scenario that manu fan stated then call a judge and swing as fast as you can, playing nothing else excpet maybe allies for some damage. your turn can last 15 seconds and his should be less if he has no plays. just go fast and he takes longer than 10 seconds with 1-2 cards in hand then he is probably trying to waste the clock.