Not disagreeing with your post, just commenting on small pieces of it. You can see if you scroll back that I've consistently agreed with the OP.

As for WC3, well, the TCG is directly based on the MMO, but that's based on the lore and characters of WC3, so vicariously we are playing a game based on WC3. Some of the cards in the game are strictly from previous Warcraft games...For example, Blizzard had to remove Pandarens from WoW to be able to sell the game in China, so you'll never find Chen Stormsnout in WoW beyond a vague mention of him in the Barrens. That's probably a subject for another thread, though, unless more Warcraft 3 parallels are used to justify the mage low-health syndrome. (In other words, /derail off)

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Oh ok cool.

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Varak:

My opponent played conjured cinamon roll. my turn comes along and i play nyn'jah's tabi boots. I choose to use the payment power of his cinamon roll to gain control of it. but he has loly the unsuspecting out.

One of the thing about the mage debate is that in certain matchup it's true that it doesn't matter but in other matchups it's huge. If I'm playing control versus control as a mage, hp doesn't really matter and mage will do good. That's probably the archetype where mage have been doing the best overall.

But on the other hand mage as always been auto lost to daspien style deck. This is due to more then 1 reason but the health is a huge issue. With a flip as violent as the one daspien got + the ability to do direct damage 25 health is a HUGE liability and it make it close to impossible to stabilize in time.

Rush versus rush is more often decided by the dieroll then the 25 health of the mage imo (another issue) but again you come up with games where it could have maybe been possible for a mage rush to come back and win a game on the draw but due to basically having 1 less turn to live you come up short and die.

With omedeus you at least have what was for a long time considered to be the strongest flip in the game which make it an exception to the rule that casters in this game mostly suck.

And even as mage control, if you are playing against a good rush player you will probably lose ton more games versus if you had been playing another class. Example, at the group champ I was playing our Aleyah build and face stormclaw who started both game. Now for stormclaw that build is as close as auto-loss as possible but still in game #2 I was up to 22 damage at some point. That's with defensive cards like hammer of justice that mage would only dream of being able to play. If I'm playing aleyah I'm 7 life away of dying. The only way for me to die at that point if the board is clear is with a combo of twig + rak or twig + morlug. Any of those combos are very unlikely at this point in the game since stormclaw is mostly in top deck mode. Now if I have 3 health left I'm 1 top deck away of dying. Wrath, twig, snig if they play him, etc. My chance of dying at any turn is probably 3-4 times greater with 3 life then 7. I mean it's obvious to some extent that with more life control decks would always stabilize against rush. 

Basically what it does is greatly limit the type of decks with low life that are viable in the meta versus other classes. Which is part of the imbalance this game suffer imo. I have yet to see what I consider a real tier #1 deck from mage since I started playing this game (ozzati was a crappy deck) and the health is a huge reason for that.

Lastly one thing that kinda blur the balance for mage in particular is that they are much better in limited then they are in constructed. They tend to have more removal and burn available then other classes. Tazo flip is great if not one of the best in limited, etc. But also note that one of the most played class in limited is warrior simply because you at least get the highest life total when your available ability pool from each classes is very limited.

I agree to a certain extent to the fact that omedus' flip was incredible at the time. I think that to compensate for the turn less of life...which is what it comes down to usually. Mage flips should GENERALLY cost 1 less. To compensate for their lack of health i think their flips should be the inverse of their health. i.e. the best in the game vs. the worst in the game. Ozzati's flip would be amazing if it cost 3 instead of four. Generally, a flip is a higher costed version of a card in the game, due to the fact that mages start with the least amount of health and have no mage spec ability cards to heal damage the compensation should be in a flip that would see use every game and provide breaking abilities a la an ozzati flip that cost three or a varanis flip that cost only three. I do not think tazo's flip at 2 is backbreaking because they start out the game on average with 2-3 less health, add that in to the fact that if the flip makes up the difference, then the opposing hero still has a flip that does more than equalize health totals.

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My Life For Auir

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1997716:

I agree to a certain extent to the fact that omedus' flip was incredible at the time. I think that to compensate for the turn less of life...which is what it comes down to usually. Mage flips should GENERALLY cost 1 less. To compensate for their lack of health i think their flips should be the inverse of their health. i.e. the best in the game vs. the worst in the game. Ozzati's flip would be amazing if it cost 3 instead of four. Generally, a flip is a higher costed version of a card in the game, due to the fact that mages start with the least amount of health and have no mage spec ability cards to heal damage the compensation should be in a flip that would see use every game and provide breaking abilities a la an ozzati flip that cost three or a varanis flip that cost only three. I do not think tazo's flip at 2 is backbreaking because they start out the game on average with 2-3 less health, add that in to the fact that if the flip makes up the difference, then the opposing hero still has a flip that does more than equalize health totals.

Even a hero flip "making up the difference" isnt really what would be needed to overcome the health difference.  Yes, being able to do 3 damage for 2 cost is ok, but unless your playing against a hero that has a flip that does nothing to you, they will still have a flip to use.  Even if the opponents flip is more expensive for the same cost that really wont make anything up at all, as a 1 time use power shouldnt make or break games. 

Again, what mages need are better spells ala sudden death, puncture, the natural order, cyclone etc etc.  Abilities that are cheap, have multiple uses, and can hold off either rush or solo.  Polymorph is ok, would be awesome and played if it effected heros.  Metalmorph is the same thing, would see more play if it took away attack power and/or was instant.  Note that these spells are are able to be dispelled so wouldnt be terribly awesome, but would allow us to remain stable for a turn or two until your opponent found a answer.  Instead, mages get a bunch of spells that are usefull in some situations but not the majority.  You can have spells good vs rush, or good vs solo, or good vs control, but we have few spells good vs anything.

Oh, and why does fireball cost 4?  Magma spike 4?  you would think that one of the biggest dps classes wouldnt be crushed by mortal strike and heroic strike in terms of cost economy.  Yes of course those two abilities rely on having a weapon, but still.  If you want to talk in terms of the MMO, I cant think of too many classes that can withstand 3 of my mages fireballs, yet in the tcg that wont kill anything and would only happen on turn 6, leaving you little to no resources to defend yourself while Gorebelly has a turn 4 30 damage potential.  Where is the huge dps potential for mages to offset the fragile HPs?

Ironically, as a longtime dedicated player of the MMO with all but 2 classes at 70 (Lock and Shaman) I have to say the mage is reflected very well in the card game from the MMO.  ;)

Low health with damage and abilities that do not scale as well as warriors or rogues put the mage in a poor position end-game/season WoW and as your opinion confirms, the TCG.

The mage in all things Warcraft is a snubbed class I guess =)

I feel that the low HP is due to mage being 'cloth wearers', and having casters always have low HP in almost any RPG game.

Another view I have it from a design/gameplay point. Mages tend to have really good card draw eg: Evocation, Invocation, Jade Agate etc. However, most of their abilities can only be abused in the late game. As such, alot of mage's abilities stop stuff from attacking. All these is to help the class survive into late game where their abilities can wreck havoc.

To balance this game-stalling power, mages need to have a low HP. If mages had 30HP, they would have a much easier time surviving till later parts of the game, which would be unfair to other classes.

Mage abilities are powerful on their own. Warrior abilities tend to have requirements (weap in play). Thus, it isn't a fair comparison that warriors' abilities are better than a mages. A lot of resources (mana) are needed in order to abuse certain mage cards, just like in the MMO.

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Puncture > ...Mage doesn't even have an ability to kill a target ally or weapon.

Intercept > Blink etc

Bloodrage > Mana Agate/etc, Evocation, Invocation

The counters have an advantage when you have stuff out, they do not require it.

None have requirements. None are overcosted. Even having a lot of (mana) does not warrant 'abuse' of Mage cards, since in this example, Warrior will have been drawing an extra card every turn, as well as the initial two.

Further, Mages are no better in the late game than any other class, since Allies are the main game-enders, and are available to all classes.

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Varak:

My opponent played conjured cinamon roll. my turn comes along and i play nyn'jah's tabi boots. I choose to use the payment power of his cinamon roll to gain control of it. but he has loly the unsuspecting out.

Anyone find it mildly humorous that one of the best players in the game is complaining about this? I can just picture him losing with a Mage deck and using the excuse that he lost because his hero's health was too low. It definately wasn't because he was outplayed. It had to be that the game was flawed......right? LOL

Yes, playing a Mage is a challenging class. And yes the health is a slight drawback, but it isn't as unbalanced as you are all making it out to be. You just need to take special consideration of that fact when playing Mage. Yes, other classed don't really have to do this.

~DF

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Proud member of Team Chubb.

"Can you see without your Glouses?"

1983505:

Anyone find it mildly humorous that one of the best players in the game is complaining about this? I can just picture him losing with a Mage deck and using the excuse that he lost because his hero's health was too low. It definately wasn't because he was outplayed. It had to be that the game was flawed......right? LOL

Yes, playing a Mage is a challenging class. And yes the health is a slight drawback, but it isn't as unbalanced as you are all making it out to be. You just need to take special consideration of that fact when playing Mage. Yes, other classed don't really have to do this.

~DF

I find this statement to be one of the most ignorant things i have ever read on these boards. When you get to higher level play, any disadvantage will lose you the game. Starting the game with 3-4 damage on your hero is a huge disadvantage, ESPECIALLY in a class with no class specific healing available. So where as you find it funny that he is complaining because of his ego, the rest of us know he is complaining because mage has a natural disadvantage this has not been surmounted until possibly now with amazing spec cards. And in the end, if you lose just one match due to having a low health total that one match is usually the one that puts you out of top 8.

So no, i don't find it funny at all.

 

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My Life For Auir

Player Management Level 1 Judge
Rules Knowledge Level 1 Judge

1983505:

Anyone find it mildly humorous that one of the best players in the game is complaining about this?

Would it be more serious if the complaint came from a bad player?

By DF's crazy baboon logic it appears I'm not allowed to voice my opinion of the game and point out things that I might like to see changed.  It's not like I took a Mage to a big tournament, lost by a health point, then came home and wrote this.

I can see why the designers might not want every hero to be the same 28 health but there are some clear problems I felt with a 25 - 30 potential discrepancy.  You provide some good insight with comments like "it isn't as unbalanced as you are all making it out to be. You just need to take special consideration of that fact when playing Mage."  We wouldn't want to trouble you with having to provide some examples of what you mean here.  Foolishly, I never took 25 health into consideration when playing Mage and just ignored decks that applied pressure.

Keep in mind this was written a while ago and only time will tell if powerful new talent cards can help out the Mage class.  The bottom line is that you clearly don't have a fundamental understanding of the point of the original post.  The health totals are arbitrary and it was a bit frustrating trying to playtest a class that had lower health than others without ever understanding why.  I suppose the best advice is, "if you don't like it, just don't play mage."

 It is unfortunate that the health issue is there. The problem is when mage cards are balanced against other cards. Sure ,they cost the same and do roughly the same as another classes cards. The problem is that that other class will last longer.

 You would think mage cards could either suffer a cost reduction or power boost to show why it is they take 5 less damage to kill then the warrior, who also gets all that damage reduction .. .

I guess I'm not allowed to express my concerns either. Should my opinion weigh any lesser than yours simply because I haven't won a major championship? I may not devote the same amount of time to this game, but I can still draw conclusions from the experiences I have learned. Which is exactly what you're doing.

I've seen some strong mage decks in my experiences. Ones that have had great success. I've witnessed Mages ability to stall the game almost indefinately to the point where the opponent concedes. I've witnessed the brutal power of fire mages (including one of your team's creations) blasting their opponent's faces off and not giving a damn about what their health is at. I've even seen Mage decks that draw obscene amounts of cards and just bury their opponent with complete card advantage.

To me, this is just like the MMO forums, where people complain about their class being nerfed or unbalanced. Hell, I played a Warrior for 3 years and I also did my fair share of complaining. But in the end, I continued to play the class and loved it even if it wasn't balanced. It was a challenge. I've taken that experience to heart. If I like to play a class because its fun, then I'll play it. If it has a disadvantage, that just creates a bigger challenge that I'm up for. But if I get frustrated or angry to the fact that there is a disadvantage, then what fun is there to be had?

Yes, in high-level tournaments, any disadvantage can be critical to your success. But you acknowledge that risk when you started the tournament now didn't you?

Also realize that this game is based from the MMO and I think their evaluation of health totals is fairly accurate besides one class. (Which would be Warlock. Why 28?) I would love to see the discussion had by the developers when they discussed health totals. That would give us alot of insight. Mages in the MMO are glass cannons. That is reflected extremely well in the WoW TCG. That is why they have a lower health total.

The Mage class is pretty darn good though. They have better card draw than any other class, they have the most interrupts and they have some of the most efficient burn abilities in the game. (Above Shaman and Druid in my books).

You're looking at one part of the equation (health total) and wondering why the answer is what it is. You need to look at the larger picture before you can begin to understand that. That is why I believe the class isn't as unbalanced as you are all making it out to be.

~DF

P.S. Excuse me for being ignorant in my last post. I was only trying to lighten the mood and maybe bring a few laughs. Epic fail.

 

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Proud member of Team Chubb.

"Can you see without your Glouses?"

1983505:

I guess I'm not allowed to express my concerns either. Should my opinion weigh any lesser than yours simply because I haven't won a major championship? I may not devote the same amount of time to this game, but I can still draw conclusions from the experiences I have learned. Which is exactly what you're doing.

Opinions and analysis are two different things. There's a reason why most analysts that you see on sports broadcasts are former athletes who can provide particular insight into high-level competition. I know Brad used the word "opinion" but this is more "analysis" than it is strictly "opinion". In that case, I'm willing to put more stock in the analysis provided by the person who has repeatedly demonstrated the ability to play and playtest at a far higher level than the average player.

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