if u make it fire hero only, doesnt much help all mages does it?

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1316808:

if u make it fire hero only, doesnt much help all mages does it?

I just found it overpowering as a mage card on its own without having another restriction. 1 more cost makes it an almost unplayable card, and fire hero required just fits the idea well. The other types can have variations to this as well.

Arcane shield (5 cost)

Arcane hero required

Search your entire collection for a card called Fire protection and put it into play attached to your hero.
When your hero takes damage, destroy fire protection and prevent the damage. You may pay 2. If you do, fire protection comes into your hand at the end of the turn.

Frost Wave(4 cost)

Frost hero required

You may only play this card at the end of an opponents turn. For every hero and ally in that party that did not enter play or exhaust this turn, your hero has +1 health.(You always keep this maximum bonus, even if the allies were destroyed or any new ones came out)

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"Insert witty remark here"

I just want to point out how much i agree with this thread. Mages SHOULD have the best flips and their abilities should be slightly undercosted to make up for the deficit in their starting health. Health totals should correspond to a RELATIVE power level in flips and abilites.

Instead warriors get flips like "destroy target protector" for 2!!!

And on top of that they get cards like puncture as well as the most damaging weapons and armor that prevents the most damage....+5 health is a huge advantage already, why should there cards be considered THE BEST in the game as well.

Puncture is easily one of the top 5 abilities for cost in the game, Mortal strike is pretty great as well, throw in withering shout or bloodrage and etc, etc.

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My Life For Auir

Player Management Level 1 Judge
Rules Knowledge Level 1 Judge

Has anyone tried chucking out 4 x Hanaga Silverveins???

the temporary +20 health has to be SOME sort of bonus

2154410:

Has anyone tried chucking out 4 x Hanaga Silverveins??? the temporary +20 health has to be SOME sort of bonus

*facepalm*

You just lost 20 credibility points.

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"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" - Occam's Razor
WoWTCGScrub.com - Proving the third word each and every day.

all in all this issue, regardless of "class" balance, ends up as a big fat waste of time since anyone can just play any hero they want at any time.  arguing for mage balance ends up sounding like you will be trying to force it by making up ridiculously ludicrous mage cards that make no sense, which would be even worse coz then everyone would just play mage.  ya i think we can just leave the game health as is, whether its based on online hp or not.

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1997716:

I just want to point out how much i agree with this thread. Mages SHOULD have the best flips and their abilities should be slightly undercosted to make up for the deficit in their starting health. Health totals should correspond to a RELATIVE power level in flips and abilites.

Instead warriors get flips like "destroy target protector" for 2!!!

And on top of that they get cards like puncture as well as the most damaging weapons and armor that prevents the most damage....+5 health is a huge advantage already, why should there cards be considered THE BEST in the game as well.

Puncture is easily one of the top 5 abilities for cost in the game, Mortal strike is pretty great as well, throw in withering shout or bloodrage and etc, etc.

To add onto this rogues can be elusive for the whole turn for cost 1. They can be untargetable for 1. They have multuple untargetable cards. Rogues can many cards that destroy allies (even untargetables without combo cards) and cards that destroy equipment.

Priests can tear up allies, abilities, heal and become elusive for cheap.

Druids can tear up allies, destroy equipment and abilities (cheaply), heal, direct damage and draw cards.

Mages can direct damage (not so cheaply), annoy equipment until the ability hate comes out, expsensive denial (can be worked though granted), and draw cards like no other class.

Mages are in need of a decent power up specially in a game where abilities can be so easily destroyed.

Mage talents should be something like this:

Arcane Fortitude - 2 cost - prevent the first 2 damage that would be dealt to your hero each turn.

Prismatic Cloak - 2 cost Lightning Reflexes or 3 cost Pain Suppression

Impact - 5 cost - When a Fire Ability targets a single target, exhaust that target.

Icy Veins - Divine Illumination

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My Have/Wants List

This post is well thought out and raises a very good point. I totally agree, although I haven't seen anyone mention yet that Mage has access to The Bringer of Death, a rather insane card... unfortunately though, as in many other people point out, it is overshadowed by classes that can do it better. I think the makers of the game went wrong when they made cards like Puncture and The Natural Order - originally the game was looking very strategy and skill-based, requiring you to combine cards in your turn to produce maximum effects. But slowly they are heading in the direciton of Yu-Gi-Oh - cheap (not as in cost) devastating cards that produce a great effect without the player even having to think. Anyone who has played Yu-Gi-Oh may understand the analogies:

The Bringer of Death - Chaos Emperor Dragon Envoy of the End

Voidfire Wand - Yata Garasu

Puncture - Smashing Ground (SG)

The Natural Order - Mystical Space Typhoon (MST)

A common top tier deck, Priest, uses both Bringer and Voidfire as 2 of its key cards. In Yu-Gi-Oh Chaos Emperor Dragon and Yata were both banned on the very first banned list and never came back.

Every Warrior deck runs Punctrue, ever Druid deck as far as I know runs The Natural Order. In Yu-Gi-Oh, SG and MST were both limited to one, MST has been the most consistent staple since it was released. For a very long time, Smashing Ground was also a very consistent staple.

Even if you don't understand or care about Yu-Gi-Oh, I hope people can still see my point. The makers need to reconsider some of the cards they create, and stop giving people an easy way to do well without even strategising/thinking. The fact that only certain decks can do it is even worse, it automatically puts the other decks at a disadvantage. The fact that some of these decks ALSO start with significantly less HP puts it at even MORE of a disadvantage and a combination of things like this has condemned Mage.

Don't get me wrong, I DO think that the makers of the game have done well so far to not allow one deck to get TOO insanely powerful and dominate a format, but it's coming close and even though there are a few diferent viable decks, the makers should do everything they can to give as many strategies as possible equal viability (is that a word xD).

An example of something they did well was Survival Hunter - it IS very annoying to damage and kill, Survival Instincts and Feign Death are examples of good cards that have great effects but only in the right deck. Another one, although it is a BIT overpowered at the moment, is Ripped Through The Void - it actually does require a deck based aroud it, setting up and strategising... the fact that it practically wins you the game on turn 5 is kinda overpowered but the idea was good.

One major problem that destroys a lot of deck strategies, in my opinion, is The Bringer of Death. If I could ban any one card in the game, it would be that. It is very detrimental to the game, severely lowering the potential of any deck that relies on setting up the board (examples: Affliction Warlock, Retribution Paladin, Beast Mastery Hunter)... if you look through some of the cards they've made, a lot would be pretty cool and interesting to incorporate into a strategy, if (being Ongoing, Equipment or an Ally) they weren't so easy to destroy (Puncture and The Natural Order contribute to this, as well as Bringer when any more than one or two cards need to be on the field to work together)

Hmm that was a rather large post

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"I'll take a potato chip... and I'll EAT IT!"

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=wRKPaN6RW9U

Well, if they wanted to focus on the strengths of Mage (card drawing, counterspells, denial and "slow burn"), they just have to print a couple of cards:

"$10 Fire Ability"
Cost: 4, Instant - Fire
When you draw a card, deal 1 fire damage to target hero or ally.

"$10 Counterspell"
Cost: 4, Instant - Arcane
Interrupt target ability, equipment, or ally.
Attach to target hero or ally
Ongoing: At the start of your turn, deal 1 arcane damage to the attached character.

OR
"$5 Counterspell"
Cost: 3, Instant - Arcane
Choose one: Interrupt target ability or equipment, or deal 3 damage to target hero or ally.
If you pay 2 more, do both.

"$10 Denial"
Cost: 5, Frost
Untargetable
When "$10 Denial" comes into play, choose a non-melee and non-ranged ally type.
Cards of that type cannot be played.

I do think the big worry with this is that once you start giving mage better "Blue" abilities, there's no way that it won't be one of the best hero types due to the inherent design of this game (and Magic.)  Card draw, counters, and denial is something that is the most delicate thing to balance.  I've played Magic enough to know that in every format there's always a blue deck, even when blue gets the 'worst' cards of the set.  Most of the times, this deck usually wins whatever Grand Prix or Nationals due to the combination of the cards and the playskill needed to use them.

2192038:

This post is well thought out and raises a very good point. I totally agree, although I haven't seen anyone mention yet that Mage has access to The Bringer of Death, a rather insane card... unfortunately though, as in many other people point out, it is overshadowed by classes that can do it better. I think the makers of the game went wrong when they made cards like Puncture and The Natural Order - originally the game was looking very strategy and skill-based, requiring you to combine cards in your turn to produce maximum effects. But slowly they are heading in the direciton of Yu-Gi-Oh - cheap (not as in cost) devastating cards that produce a great effect without the player even having to think. Anyone who has played Yu-Gi-Oh may understand the analogies:

The Bringer of Death - Chaos Emperor Dragon Envoy of the End

Voidfire Wand - Yata Garasu

Puncture - Smashing Ground (SG)

The Natural Order - Mystical Space Typhoon (MST)

A common top tier deck, Priest, uses both Bringer and Voidfire as 2 of its key cards. In Yu-Gi-Oh Chaos Emperor Dragon and Yata were both banned on the very first banned list and never came back.

Every Warrior deck runs Punctrue, ever Druid deck as far as I know runs The Natural Order. In Yu-Gi-Oh, SG and MST were both limited to one, MST has been the most consistent staple since it was released. For a very long time, Smashing Ground was also a very consistent staple.

Even if you don't understand or care about Yu-Gi-Oh, I hope people can still see my point. The makers need to reconsider some of the cards they create, and stop giving people an easy way to do well without even strategising/thinking. The fact that only certain decks can do it is even worse, it automatically puts the other decks at a disadvantage. The fact that some of these decks ALSO start with significantly less HP puts it at even MORE of a disadvantage and a combination of things like this has condemned Mage.

Don't get me wrong, I DO think that the makers of the game have done well so far to not allow one deck to get TOO insanely powerful and dominate a format, but it's coming close and even though there are a few diferent viable decks, the makers should do everything they can to give as many strategies as possible equal viability (is that a word xD).

An example of something they did well was Survival Hunter - it IS very annoying to damage and kill, Survival Instincts and Feign Death are examples of good cards that have great effects but only in the right deck. Another one, although it is a BIT overpowered at the moment, is Ripped Through The Void - it actually does require a deck based aroud it, setting up and strategising... the fact that it practically wins you the game on turn 5 is kinda overpowered but the idea was good.

One major problem that destroys a lot of deck strategies, in my opinion, is The Bringer of Death. If I could ban any one card in the game, it would be that. It is very detrimental to the game, severely lowering the potential of any deck that relies on setting up the board (examples: Affliction Warlock, Retribution Paladin, Beast Mastery Hunter)... if you look through some of the cards they've made, a lot would be pretty cool and interesting to incorporate into a strategy, if (being Ongoing, Equipment or an Ally) they weren't so easy to destroy (Puncture and The Natural Order contribute to this, as well as Bringer when any more than one or two cards need to be on the field to work together)

Hmm that was a rather large post

I disagree with this post as i think bringer of death is a necessary evil. If a caster class can stall the game till turn 8, they deserve the board wipe they need to stabilize completely. However, in particular a class only needs a few great cards to be more viable, with better flips and a few power cards. "Imagine a card that cost 6 and destroyed all abilites or all equipment.(but not both)" Or a counter that cost 2 for that simply said interrupt target ally. The apparent design for mages wants them to be controlling as opposed to "Glass Cannons" that they are in the game. I always look at massmorph and think that if Invoke the Nether costs 6, this should too. I think mage should always be slightly more vulnerable to rush than other classes but not to the extent that it is at the moment.

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My Life For Auir

Player Management Level 1 Judge
Rules Knowledge Level 1 Judge

Megamorph targets, has nolasting effect on board position (allies stick around if megamorph gets blown up) and costs 2 more than the untargeted, unreversable invoke.

Given the restrictions, I think arguments could be made that Megamorph would be fair at 4 cost, or 5 cost if it hit a party rather than targeting the allies.

As it is, the main thing holding mage back is the cost of it's cards. It has some cards that would be great... if they didn't cost far too much to play. There are a few cards I can think of that could push mage up to T1 status, but as it stands there is no reason not to play a diffrent class for any burn/control deck... which are the two things mage is supposed to be doing.

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Have/Wants list

Panther City Players (Team PCP)

I think this thread has strayed way far off from what the original post intended. I don't think the idea was to come up with excellent new cards to make Mages 'good'... Go to the fantasy cards thread (is there one here?) for that.

What the original post raises is a valid point, that the health totals in the card game serve only as a reflection of a mechanic in the MMO (which as someone pointed out earlier, is a poor representation...) and in the TCG only put the lower-health classes (without uber heals) at a disadvantage. My brother and I had a similar discussion about the Tauren race: each of their heroes gets an extra point of health....but what do the other races get? Sure they get their racial abilities and quests, but some of those are garbage compared to an inherent 1 point health advantage, and its not like Tauren was denied racial abilities and quests of its own.

Actually, on the point of racial abilities, Undead is one of the only ways to play Mage, imo, because of Cannibalize. That a caster class should be denied the option to go Blood Elf and thus lose the dual power of Solanian's Belongings, a core quest of any caster, makes you wonder. But now I'm tending towards the "Mages need better specific cards" with all my talk of the racial abilites...*sigh*.

The TCG just seems to try and be the MMO far too much in some ways, but in other ways I don't see the correlation (not that I play the MMO myself). For example, can you destroy someone's weapon and/or armour in the MMO? Is Warrior capable of killing a dude of any size with a single cheap spell? Ideally, does a caster eg Mage ever actually enter combat with an enemy dude?

I think that if the TCG can't mirror the MMO in concepts such as these, putting classes at a disadvantage because of low health totals for similarity's sake is unnecessary.

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Varak:

My opponent played conjured cinamon roll. my turn comes along and i play nyn'jah's tabi boots. I choose to use the payment power of his cinamon roll to gain control of it. but he has loly the unsuspecting out.

1381330:

The TCG just seems to try and be the MMO far too much in some ways, but in other ways I don't see the correlation (not that I play the MMO myself). For example, can you destroy someone's weapon and/or armour in the MMO? Is Warrior capable of killing a dude of any size with a single cheap spell? Ideally, does a caster eg Mage ever actually enter combat with an enemy dude?

Have you played Warcraft 3? The hero units in that game were considerably more powerful than the other troops, but not so much so that they couldn't be taken down by a strong field of units. That is basically the situation we face in WoW:TCG. And if we use the WC3 version of heroes, since there are no "heroes" in the traditional sense in WoW:MMO, yes there are some absurd things the heroes can do. Some of them made it into WoW (both versions), but many did not. For example, Blademasters have a way to make 4 copies of themselves that soak damage and, I believe, also deal damage. They die if you kill the real Blademaster, but you gotta identify him first. That sort of ability for any class with a weapon (assuming you didn't have to pay the strike cost 5 times,) would be rediculous-with-an-E.

I wasn't especially impressed with the heroes in WC3 that primarily relied on abilities rather than supplementing their attack with it, but I was also a scrub at the game. I honestly don't remember how the archmage units played, but it was a real pita when they polymorphed your hero. Imagine if that happened and you couldn't play any abilities or use any weapons!

 

Regarding your very last statement, "enter combat" does not mean "participate in hand-to-hand." If a mage blasts you away before you even see him, in a sense, he entered combat. He just exited it right away as well. But no, ideally, a mage never has to use a staff or a wand.

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winner of DMF Philly leveling contest

I'm uncertain of your point. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my idea that some facets of the TCG seem to arbitrarily mirror the MMO (the health totals which disadvantage some classes), when other areas clearly don't? From what you are saying about Warcraft 3, it seems that you are supporting my argument, in that it would be stupid to copy the WoW games and provide some heroes/classes with eg the Blademaster thing. Conversely, the tone suggests that you disagreed with my post.

I'm sorry to say I haven't played Warcraft 3. When I wrote my post, I was under the impression that the World of Warcraft TCG was based on the World of Warcraft MMO, and didn't consider other Warcraft games. Interestingly, the situation you described regarding the WC3 heroes being stronger but not unassailable does seem to resemble the TCG more than the MMO.

And yeah, by entering combat I meant actually engaging them melee style, which as you confirmed, is never supposed to happen to a Mage...with his low health totals.

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Varak:

My opponent played conjured cinamon roll. my turn comes along and i play nyn'jah's tabi boots. I choose to use the payment power of his cinamon roll to gain control of it. but he has loly the unsuspecting out.