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A few questions about Slow Play

Last post 11-04-2009, 10:51 PM by Draxy. 43 replies.
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  •  10-26-2009, 9:09 AM 1848910 in reply to 1848519

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    I played against this same Varanis Player this weekend. He was not even playing Belt of Blasting. The Naliss was his only win condition other than decking out his opponent and/or going to time after healing to full and winning game 1 on damage (I had seen him do this against an opponent in a prior round, although at that time, I did not know he was not playing Belts or one Scouring the Desert).

    In our match, he countered me but hardly dealt any damage to the point that I was going to deck him out with less than 10 minutes in the round. With 7 or 8 cards left in his deck and in game 1, he dropped the single copy of Scouring the Desert he played. He had had it in his hand almost the entire game, and told me he didn't play it because he knew if he dropped 30 minutes in, I would have picked up my cards and had a chance to come back and pick up a game 2 win.

    His deck, in my opinion, was from the very foundation designed to exploit one hour match procedures. Not complaining as that is legal strategy... just man, he probably had an ugly day filled with 70 minute matches and clock watching.

    P.S. He drew into all 4 blizzards by turn 8 against me. I've had more comfortable hours with my mother in law.
  •  10-26-2009, 9:26 AM 1848917 in reply to 1848830

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    Viking,

    Thanks for the in depth description of your game. I really believe the Judge got it wrong. After seeing some of those 30 second turns doing nothing, the Judge should have stepped in and given a warning for Slow play.

    I had a fairly similar experience during an RQ at NACC, where the guy I was playing drew one card at start of turn (only card in hand), and had only one quest face up (Uncatalogued Species). He took forever deciding what to do!!!! It was either play the fricken card in your hand or complete the quest first. How hard is it?? This was of course after he had won game 1 and we were getting close to time on game 2.

    Oh and BTW. Your description of the end of the game. If you said 'End Turn' and he hadn't started readying his resouces yet. I would say that it really is still your turn. Moving to end of turn, it is accepted practice for both players to be virtualling passing, until a player starts readying his resources. Sorry.

    Cheers.


    Come play at C & Js in Newark, CA
  •  10-26-2009, 9:57 AM 1848922 in reply to 1848828

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    1338970:
    1539230:
    In addition, when a judge is called to a table for slow play, they watch both players equally. If you call me to watch your opponent for slow play, I'm watching you too, and I've given warnings to players that thought their opponent was the problem. Slow play will always be a gray area. As such, it's a judgment call each floor judge has to make, and it always will be. As a player, the best thing you can do to insure that your match isn't decided by time is call a judge as soon as you feel your opponent is playing slowly. One of the biggest mistakes players make is waiting until there are only ten minutes in the round to call a judge. The more time's left in the round, the more we can do to make sure your match finishes in time or gets the appropriate extensions.
    Thanks for the answers everyone. I took a particularly tough loss recently in the third round of a tournament with a 1w-1L standing, hence all my questions about this subject. I'm really having a tough time coming to terms with this loss because I feel I did everything in my power to prevent what happened (aside from playing a different deck, naturally). Given some of the more rudimentary responses here, I feel compelled to share some additional information about this matchup against a Varanis Slow deck. FAIR WARNING: Some of the following may not be objective information. ;-)
    2428206:
    b) Lets say me and you play, more of my turns are longer than you'd expect and the winner ends up being determined by the clock. One time, it happens, no big deal. Lets say that during my second set of matches the decision goes to the clock, again. The third time, again. This would be a trend and would obviously indicate foul play.

    My point here is that there is a difference between 'logical' game play and 'manipulation.'
    ~ When my opponent first sat down, he told me straight up he'd been playing slowly against other opponents as he dropped his hero on the table. Possible trend incoming. ~ Game 1 lasted 35 minutes. He dropped Naliss the Sliencer around the 30 minute mark, asked how much time was left in the round, and began taking 40 seconds before attacking with her (the first action he took on each of his turns thereafter). Each of the first two times he did this, at the 30-second mark (my threshold for when I start thinking Slow Play might be happening), I told him he had to move along and play out his turn. Each of those first two turns, he attacked between the 40-45 second mark. ~ When we arrived at the third turn that followed his Naliss hitting the board, I raised my hand to summon the judge at the 30 second mark, since he hadn't taken an action. "Would you mind watching our match for Slow Play?" was the question I asked politely. ~ Within 3 turns, my opponent swung Naliss into me for fatal, and I informed the judge that we'd just concluded game 1. As we shuffled up for game 2, the TO announced there were 25 minutes left in the round. ~ During the course of game two, my opponent took more than 30 seconds before making his first play on at least three of his turns. Whenever this happened, I reminded my opponent "Come on, man. You've got to move this thing along!" The judge was silent as he stood behind me, never once moving to the opponent's side to view what he was considering. Is he obligated to? I suppose not, but isn't it worth gathering all the info possible when specifically asked to observe a match? ~ At the 54 minute mark in the round, my opponent asked how much time remained in the round. The TO announced that 6 minutes remained. I turned around to make sure the judge was still observing from behind me, which he was. At this point, I had been swinging in for 4 damage per turn, just played an Arcanite Dragonling, and had Varanis at 19 damage. Around the 30 second mark, he played Spell Suppression (edit: this must have been Metalmorph) on my weapon and passed turn. I quickly swung in for 2 (to 21 dmg w/ Arcanite Dragonling) and passed. ~ Another 30 second pause, and then he dropped Blood Knight Kyria. He then played Spell Suppression on my Arcanite Dragonling, chained a Fizzle on his own SS, then chained a Mystic Denial on his own Fizzle, healing for 12 total with BKK (down to 9 dmg). His hand is now empty. ~ I glanced behind me to make sure the judge was still observing, which he was. I then played a Whispering Blade to break the Denial, fished out Demonblood Eviscerator with Sunken Treasure, then replayed it to take out BKK. Pass turn. ~ 30 second turn: he draws one and passes, not playing anything. My following combat takes him to 13. Another 30 second turn with no play, and a pass with two cards in hand. I add a Whisper Blade and combat takes him to 18. Another 30 second turn with no play, and a pass with three cards in hand (the origin of my question above). Following combat takes him to 23. ~ Time is called, and I say "end turn". He considers (something?) for a moment, and then the judge says "whose turn is it?" as though he left sometime in the last few minutes. I point at my opponent, and the judge asks me "when time was called?". I repeated that I had ended, and my opponent points back at me. Without missing a beat, the judge points at my opponent saying "turn 1", then me: "turn 2", then back at him: "turn 3". ~ In the turn that followed, he healed to 19 with BKK. I took out BKK, and swung in to bring his life to 24. Out of options, I passed turn and he ended without me being able to deal the last 2 damage. After the match, I asked the judge "so you didn't see any Slow Play in that last match?" He replied "each player is allowed time to consider their options." So there you have it - the only thing I think I could have done differently was... call the judge in the first game, 20 minutes into the match. A totally frustrating outcome where I believe I was Slow Played starting at the 30 minute mark. Not your typical 10-minutes-left-in-the-round-panic-gesture.

    Well it certainly sounds like Slow Play was an issue but with the judge watching there is little you could have done rather than appeal to the Head Judge but waiting until match two kind of ruined your chances. From my other gaming experiences (as a player and a organizer) there have been rules that I do not think WoW TCG has. For example in Mechwarrior (back in the day) players were not allowed to track time or ask repeatedly for time checks. The organizer announced the half way mark and then the 10 minute mark for the end of the matches. This prevented players from stalling as they were unable to 'play the clock.'

    In your case, if someone is winning because of stalling, it will get them in the end its unfortunate that you had to lose the way you did so he could advance but generally the better player wins, he may have stalled out a couple of people buteventually someone is going to ruin his day and he is going to lose because his lack of skill may come into the picture.

  •  10-26-2009, 11:37 AM 1848961 in reply to 1848922

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    It actually sounds like the Varanis player was stalling, not slow playing. Players aren't allowed to try to manipulate match outcome with the clock; it's considered a form of cheating. A really clear-cut example of stalling would be:

    I won game one. It's game two, with three minutes left in the match, and I'm Voidfire locked and have about 5 damage on me. I take 30 seconds for each of my turns.

    This player is obviously trying to get to end-of-match to win by having won game one. He should get DQed. From your descriptions, it sounds like the Varanis players was purposefully taking a long time to avoid the chance of losing later games. There's nothing illegal about placing the Scouring the Desert as you're about to deck, but his comment about doing it so he won't lose game two is shady at best. Without having watched the match or talked to your opponent, I can't say for sure either way, but it sounds like he was trying to gain an advantage by the clock.

    Remember, slow play penalties are given to people who aren't playing fast enough because they're taking too much time to make decisions. Stalling DQs are given to people who are taking too long to abuse the clock and end-of-match procedure.

    They gave me some judge levels or something, too...
  •  10-26-2009, 12:55 PM 1849003 in reply to 1848961

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    Good catch. Time to re-read the Penalty Guidelines.

    P704 Stalling
    This infraction occurs when a player intentionally plays slow during a game to gain an advantage.
    Players that intentionally play slow to gain an advantage from end of match procedures create an unfair game environment, and unnecessarily delay the tournament.

    The penalty for Stalling is a Disqualification for both Rules Levels.

    Examples:
    A player who won the first game of the match purposely plays slowly in order to stall for time and wait for the round to end.

    Cheers.




    Come play at C & Js in Newark, CA
  •  10-26-2009, 1:25 PM 1849028 in reply to 1849003

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    OK, so now we know the difference between Stalling and Slow Play. I've based my entire argument for an enforcement of the wrong penalty. =)

    With that said, is a player recommended to use the specific words "would you mind watching my opponent for Stalling?" Or, like my original question, can anyone think of a hard-and-fast rule that could be implemented to give a player (who's on the short end of the stall stick) recourse or a leg to stand on in the event that general observation failed?

    Charter Member, OC Fight Club
    "I'd tell you more, but we don't talk about Fight Club."
  •  10-26-2009, 1:59 PM 1849048 in reply to 1849028

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    I believe you should be able to tell a Judge - "My opponent is playing very slowly after winning game 1. Could you please check they are not stalling". Then, the Judge should watch the player (seeing their cards) to check for stalling.

    Cheers


    Come play at C & Js in Newark, CA
  •  10-26-2009, 2:37 PM 1849064 in reply to 1849048

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    1189990:
    I believe you should be able to tell a Judge - "My opponent is playing very slowly after winning game 1. Could you please check they are not stalling". Then, the Judge should watch the player (seeing their cards) to check for stalling.

    Cheers


    This is a good starting point. A better starting point, however, would be to talk to the judge away from the table when you call him over. Explain, away from your opponent exactly what is going on, ie "My opponent won game one, and since the round is coming to an end I'm worried that he's stalling to win the match in time." The judge needs this background information to determine whether or not your opponent is stalling and the more you tell the judge, the more he'll have to go on (like in the example I used previously, if he also happens to be Voidfire locked, that's a good indication he's stalling). Accusing your opponent of cheating is a pretty big deal, which is why I recommend you talk to the judge in private: it takes away the pressure of making that accusation in public and saves face if your opponent isn't actually stalling. And besides, if the judge thinks he is, you're both going to be having private conversations with the head judge during the DQ investigation anyway.
    They gave me some judge levels or something, too...
  •  10-26-2009, 3:52 PM 1849114 in reply to 1849064

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    I would agree that that player certainly seemed to fit the textbook description of stalling, indeed. Unfortunately, determining that as an observer would seem to be far more difficult than as a participant.

    There is, of course, an 100% sure fix for all slow play issues, though the cure might be worse than the disease. That would be the adoption of the use of chess clocks. Set each clock for 45 minutes, and every time it's your turn, your opponent clicks his side of the clock so your timer starts counting down. Just would need to click back and forth whenever you wish to make a reaction play during your opponent's turn as well. (ie, he makes a play, you click the clock so you're on timer, exhaust resources, play nether fracture, then click the clock back to him, etc.) If your timer ever runs out completely, you lose the match.

    If you've ever seen high-level competitive chess players playing speed chess (each person has 5 minutes on their clock for an entire game), you know just how fast people can make decisions and click the clock when they need to. heh.

    Obviously, I severely doubt that that would ever be even considered for adoption for the game for a myriad of reasons. It would, however, as I said, completely eliminate slow play/stalling as an issue.

    WOW TCG Judge: Level 1
    Tournament Organizer: Level 1
    Player Management: Level 1
  •  10-26-2009, 4:08 PM 1849125 in reply to 1849114

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    2377271:
    I would agree that that player certainly seemed to fit the textbook description of stalling, indeed. Unfortunately, determining that as an observer would seem to be far more difficult than as a participant.

    There is, of course, an 100% sure fix for all slow play issues, though the cure might be worse than the disease. That would be the adoption of the use of chess clocks. Set each clock for 45 minutes, and every time it's your turn, your opponent clicks his side of the clock so your timer starts counting down. Just would need to click back and forth whenever you wish to make a reaction play during your opponent's turn as well. (ie, he makes a play, you click the clock so you're on timer, exhaust resources, play nether fracture, then click the clock back to him, etc.) If your timer ever runs out completely, you lose the match.

    If you've ever seen high-level competitive chess players playing speed chess (each person has 5 minutes on their clock for an entire game), you know just how fast people can make decisions and click the clock when they need to. heh.

    Obviously, I severely doubt that that would ever be even considered for adoption for the game for a myriad of reasons. It would, however, as I said, completely eliminate slow play/stalling as an issue.


    This has already been discussed in another thread. It's a bad idea for many reasons, including priority and broken clocks. As you said, the cure in this case is worse than the disease, and isn't even really a cure. Having a chess clock makes the round time limit even more abusable--if I have 45 seconds to make a play, I can take 44 every time and not worry about getting a penalty. On the surface it seems like an okay idea, but it shares all the pitfalls of putting specific times on slow play.
    They gave me some judge levels or something, too...
  •  10-26-2009, 4:17 PM 1849134 in reply to 1849125

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    Well, if you have a hard and fast limit of 45 minutes total on your clock to complete a match, and your time spent contemplating (that 44 seconds you mention) doesn't impact the time left on your opponent's clock, you are actually harming YOURSELF by such slow play antics. Obviously, the clock timers would replace the round time limit, as you now have a hard and fixed maximum possible time of just under 90 minutes for each round to complete, as that's the total time aggregated between both clocks.

    Again, though, as we both seem to agree, implementing something like that would have vast ramifications within the game, and at the very least stands a chance of being far more negative to the overall game in the long run. I will say, though, that if international grandmaster-level chess matches can occur using clocks, logistical issues with them must be surmountable somehow, so issues of broken clocks and such aren't what concern me.

    WOW TCG Judge: Level 1
    Tournament Organizer: Level 1
    Player Management: Level 1
  •  10-26-2009, 4:27 PM 1849145 in reply to 1849134

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    I know the guy who judged that event and he is totally worthless and should never be allowed to judge again, he doesn't even play the game and is a rude little jerk to boot. I am just wondering... as a judge is it within your power to grant a time extension in a game you have determined to have been slow-played? That would throw a monkeywrench in the whole slow-play scheme.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=2uKapPkp77A&feature=related
  •  10-26-2009, 4:29 PM 1849146 in reply to 1849134

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    I wasn't sure if you were advocating for a total time limit thing or a set time per play thing, both of which have serious problems.

    Since we've established that implementing this idea is a no-go (and I don't feel like re-typing my two walls of text from earlier in the thread explaining why time limits on individual plays are bad), I propose we drop the idea and label it "silly and never to be revisited."
    They gave me some judge levels or something, too...
  •  10-26-2009, 4:32 PM 1849147 in reply to 1849145

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    1420708:
    I know the guy who judged that event and he is totally worthless and should never be allowed to judge again, he doesn't even play the game and is a rude little jerk to boot. I am just wondering... as a judge is it within your power to grant a time extension in a game you have determined to have been slow-played? That would throw a monkeywrench in the whole slow-play scheme.


    Please, please, please don't flame judges (even without names) like this on the forums. If you have a problem with a particular incident, it's okay to post civily about to the situation find out what the judge should've done, but this is unacceptable. If there's a specific judge you have a problem with, email judge@upperdeck.com with the judge's name and your problem.

    That said, slow play warnings come with an extension. If a judge gives a slow play warning, he should mark down that your match gets two extra turns in time (I believe, used to be x minutes but the policy has changed).
    They gave me some judge levels or something, too...
  •  10-26-2009, 4:32 PM 1849148 in reply to 1849134

    Re: A few questions about Slow Play

    The most obvious problem with chess clocks is that in chess it's easy to determine whose turn it is. But, in WoW, a standard turn has priority passing back and forth at least 8 times, and that's assuming no one plays a card or takes any actions.

    The other issue I can see is that we don't want to create any more barriers between casual players and tournament players. If someone who has only played at their kitchen table showed up to a tournament and saw clocks on the table, I'm sure that would dissuade a pretty hefty portion of the playerbase. Just look at how many people know how to play chess and play occasionally and the percentage of tournament chess players. I'll make a prediction that it's less than 1% of casual chess players will ever play in a chess tournament. That would be a serious problem for a game like WoW.

    The hands of a healer
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