Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

Currently I know of 2 styles of combo, one for good and one for evil.

The good one can not be done til round 3 or later and requires 6 cards (2 doubles and 2 singles) to start and is easy to desrupt by attacking and KOing key parts, to me this is a fair combo

The evil combo can be done on round 1 on almost any mission, but on average is done on round 2 or 3 depending on builds. During play testing this deck wound go off on turn to around 70% of the time. Also once it starts it is very hard to stop it continuing even with some right answers.

At Aust Nats we had 2 different builds of the evil combo and they both were in the top 4, the only reason they did not win the day is the person who won had 3 cards to slow them down and 6 that could break the combo and was apart of a play group that new how to best take on the deck.

To me this combo could be clasified as too strong for the game, and with Huntik being in its early ages could put players of getting into the game. It is a card that once people realize how strong it is will get played in all evil decks. This will force both good and evil to run 2-3 cancel actions to stop this single card.

To weaken but not make this deck unplayabe only one card needs to be band, should this card be band???

To which combos are you referring?

As to whether or not it is broken - well, I can't say for certain without knowing what the combos are exactly, but I guess there are a number of questions to ask:

1 - is this combo only effective on certain missions? I.E. is this combo only effective for the nationals mission?

1a - if this combo is effective on certain missions, how many can it win?

2 - is this combo easily disrupted/stopped?

3 - is it likely that decks will be required to prepare for this deck specifically, with narrow counters?

What were the records of the people playing the combo decks? Obviously they were unsuccessful in the end - knowing what the combos do, are they beatable with cards that would be otherwise run?  You said the eventual winner had 9 cards that really hurt the combo (almost a quarter of the deck) - that seems to me like the combo decks really never had a chance in that matchup: is that a situation we're likely to see in other decks?

If the decks were effective because they were unexpected, that is very different to being effective because they are overly powerful.

EDIT: Also, which card are you suggesting be banned?

if i have to guess, the good combo would have two first set leblanche, a recovery and a recall / counter measure somewhere.
The evil combo... well, expendable help.. not sure about the exact mechanics, but i got owned by a guy with expendable help yesterday on the regional mission. in my opinion, any cards that can create a loop combo should be weakened / banned our rights.. many in YGO, most got banned.

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Jack
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If you were smart, you would definitely run tech against decks like that. It's hardly ridiculous yet.

What I don't like is that if R&D stuffs up in future sets, Huntik dies.

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To which combos are you referring?
//

Here are the 2 deck lists

2nd – Keith Lim
Major Heroes
3 Red Searcher, RT
1 Hydramaskar, CC
Minor
3 Ferric Warbringer, SW
3 Invisible Knight, FAA
2 Derenzar, UT
2 Akmen-Meo, SG
3 Crashion, BH
Actions
2 Sneaky Retreat
1 Designated Hitter
3 Expendable Help
2 Get Back to Work
3 Ferocity
3 Flashbulb
3 Dredge Memories
3 Dark Study
1 Absorb Strength
1 Outsourcing

Semi Finalist - Marc Losper
Major Heroes
3 Omeed, Sand Snake
Minor Heroes
3 Crashion
3 Derenzar
3 Heirospector, Sand Snake
3 Suit, Agent in Action
3 Thornment, Sand Snake
3 Ferric Warbringer
3 Akmen-Meo
3 Invisible Knight
1 Metzi
Actions
3 Get Back to Work
3 Powerdrain
3 Expendable help
3 Dredge Memories

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1 - is this combo only effective on certain missions? I.E. is this combo only effective for the nationals mission? //
It is most effective on the national mission, but work on all missions

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2 - is this combo easily disrupted/stopped?
//
As stated in my first post it is hard to stop once it has started unless they get really really unlucky, or just play it badly, but it is also a fairly forgiving deck

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3 - is it likely that decks will be required to prepare for this deck specifically, with narrow counters?//
Once people have a go and see how effective this is they will have to prepare for this deck specifically and there are only around 3 different cards for each side that can hope to deal with it

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What were the records of the people playing the combo decks?//
5-2 & 5-2, one was knocked out in the semis vs the deck with 9 cards and the second was knocked out in the finals by the same person

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Obviously they were unsuccessful in the end - knowing what the combos do, are they beatable with cards that would be otherwise run? //
All the cards in the deck are playable on their own, he didnt even think about defeating the combo deck when he was building it because we were only expecting the one.

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 You said the eventual winner had 9 cards that really hurt the combo (almost a quarter of the deck) - that seems to me like the combo decks really never had a chance in that matchup: is that a situation we're likely to see in other decks?//
The combo deck still has a huge chance, and got close to making it there in the second game, but the winner new when his best chance was and it was only a 50/50 at that point to stop him. Also he knew what he was up agents so he was able to be agresive with his mulligans to dig for his answers

Quote//
EDIT: Also, which card are you suggesting be banned?
//

As a few people have worked out im talking about Expendable Help and maybe Get Back to Work

If you dont beleve me on how strong this is, build Keith Lim's deck which is mostly commons play some games and then tell me what you think

 

 

Aye, I saw these decks in the other thread. I'm yet to build them and give them a shot, but I'm not so sure they'll be all that fearsome in a normal setting.

Maybe I'm just naive, because I've not played as or against it, but it does seem like there are a number of heavy heroes/strategies that would really slow this up.   More than anything else, if these decks become popular, Powerdrain/Breakspell simply become auto-includes until the decks are no longer dominant.

In other missions, especially those where you have to rely on a bevy of minors to do the job, the decks may not be so effective - and that will only be compounded as more and more people become aware of the trick.  The first time you face it, you're likely to kill as many minors as possible... the second time, you're probably going to do your very best to kill as *few* as possible, sweeping the board only when your opponent does not have an expendable help ready.

Like I said though, for me it is purely theory - I'll need to build it and have a few games on both sides to see if it is that bad.

Also wanted to note that it is heartening to see that the decks didn't manage to win the tournament. 

Well done to the eventual winner for overcoming it - out of interest, which city was the winner from?

The top two were from melbourne, and 3rd & 4th one was from melbourne and the other I think was from sydney

I was at the nationals and I played against Keiths deck listed. A deck that consistent and strong really loses the fun because it isnt playing against an opponent but rather just playing by yourself. Especially for the national mission it can create an infinite loop combo because of the lich mission card by turn 2 or 3.
Its most interesting to note Dark study an evil promo card which isn't meant to be handed out till the end of the month as a promo prize and yet a full playset was played in nationals held on 1st of August. 
but i do think expendable help is without a doubt the key evil card that needs to be restricted or banned otherwise evil combo decks will dominate once everyone figures it out.
 

(Ignoring the counterspells.)

From my experience, Good has outs but they're not the best.

Evil has some nice outs.

For Good:

Deidre - Requires eliminating her, which is bad. She can be put into zone 3 and used as bait for Expendable though, and then used to put Get Back to Work and Co. on the bottom of the deck.

Rapid Charge - Move something into Zone 2, wait a turn, and then proceed to wipe zone 5. Draws a card, too.

-Shadowpoint - Probably Good's best out.

-Zhalia Moon (Nationals promo) - Haven't used it, but seemingly if you put it in Zone 3 they have to deal smash guys into her. Aggressive mulligan into her.

For Evil:

- Slipstreaming Bales into zone 5. Oh god this is hilarious. If you're holding Ferocity, bonus points!

-Darkwave - That blasted Egyptian Cat and Derenzar can go suck a tomato. Can be 4 for 1 and they won't see it coming.

-Invisible Knight - Stick a minor hero in zone 3, and bait out that Expendable Help. When they blow it, return the minor to your hand. If they don't, then you have a guy in zone 3 that could kill some stuff next round.

-Flashbolt - This card, if played at an appropriate time, will shut the combo down.

5

6

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From this, I conclude that Evil has a better matchup vs Evil Combo. It really also comes down to how you play against it. Skingrip is an example of such. You may, even after mulligan, not have a single card that stops them at all in your hand, but you do have Skingrip. I don't consider Skingrip to be an 'official' out to Evil Combo, simply because in order to use it you generally have to already been put at risk of letting them play Expending Help (i.e putting yourself in range of combat). This is where good playing comes in. Hopefully you play at least a couple of guys with 2 or less defence. Pay close attention to what your opponent has played (hope they all have 2+ attack) and just move this 2 or less defence guy into zone 3. If they blow Expendable Help, it's a net 0, and you get to use Skingrip, or, they just attack, and you Skingrip Expendable right out of their hand.

On the Good side, if you aren't running any outs to combo, do what Geoff did against Keith in the semi final. Play super aggressive and hope to god they aren't holding Expendable Help.