Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

Hello all, this is Sean Ryberg, floor judge from DMF Boston '09.

I have a situation which received much discussion on the ride back from DMF Boston '09 the other day.

Player A (turn player) is in control of ally Vanda Skydaughter which has attacked Player B's ally Araelun. (I have chosen allies w/o powers to simplify the situation in question.)

Player B's hero is Justice Blindburn

Player A is in control of location Circle of Blood, The which has two arena counters on it and is in the ready position.

<Both players have enough resources available to fulfill the payment costs of all cards and effects.>

Prior to combat resolution Player B uses his flip power hoping to force Player A to destroy one of his allies once Araelun is destroyed.  Player A wishes to add a third arena counter to Circle of Blood, The in response to the damage dealt by Vanda Skydaughter and create an Arena Gladiator ally token which he can then use to fulfill the requirements of Justice Blindburn's flip power.

As I understand the situation it would resolve as follows:

Player A: Vanda Skydaughter exhausts and has become an attacker of Araelun.  There are no other allies on either side of the board in active play.

Player B: Justice Blindburn uses his flip power before combat resolution takes place creating a triggered effect.

Combat resolution takes place, both allies deal damage simultaniously at which point the triggered power of Circle of Blood, The creates a triggered effect.

Combat resolution ends and we enter PPP the triggered effect for Circle of Blood, The is added to the chain first since it belongs to the turn player.  Then the triggered effect from Justice Blindburn would be added since he is not the turn player.

This would cause Justice Blindburn to complete first, now waiting for "When the next ally in your party is destroyed this turn, each opponent destroys an ally in his party."  Next the triggered effect of Circle of Blood, The completes adding a third arena token to .  At this time Player A (the turn player) may exhaust  activating it's power to create an Arena Gladiator ally token, this would be added to the chain.

If no other effects are added to the chain the Arena Gladiator ally token would enter play before fatal damage caused Araelun to die and cause Justice Blindburn's flip power to be fulfilled.

OR

Would the  Arena Gladiator ally token have to wait until after this PPP resolves to be added to the play zone?

708.1 As a player is about to receive priority, any waiting triggered effects that have been created but have not yet been added to the chain are added to the chain during PPP (410.5).

708.1a If multiple triggered effects are waiting, first the turn player chooses in what order his or her
triggered effects go on the chain, and then they are added to the chain. Then, the next player clockwise chooses in what order his or her triggered effects go on the chain, and then they are added to the chain on top of the previous player’s. Then, the next player clockwise, and so on.

708.1b No player gets priority until all waiting triggered effects have been added to the chain.

708.2 Adding a triggered effect to the chain follows the applicable rules for adding links (707), although triggered effects never have costs. If a triggered effect requires targets, but legal targets for that effect can’t be chosen, or if other choices made on announcement can’t legally be made for it, the
effect ceases to exist and doesn’t affect the game in any way.

---

Sean Ryberg
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW PM 1

I was with you right up until the very end.

In the same run of PPP that adds the triggered effects to the chain (technically before the effects are added to the chain) Araelun will be destroyed due to fatal damage.

So, by the time the triggered effects are on the chain Araelun is already in the graveyard.

The end result is that both Araelun and Vanda are destroyed and The Circle of Blood has 3 counters on it.

Araelun is dealt damage before being killed, however the effect that gives The Circle of Blood the counter due to Vanda damaging Araelun does not actually put the counter onto the location until after Araelun is dead and in the graveyard.  Does that sound correct?

If that is not the case and the counter is added to the location before Araelun dies, then would Player A be able to activate The Circle of Blood and put the token into play before having to destroy Vanda?

What I am fuzzy on is when what "triggered effects" are added and when do they resolve in this situation.

---

Sean Ryberg
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW PM 1

Lets take a look at pre priority process.

410.5 Any time a player would get priority, pre-priority processing (PPP) takes place first. ---This first involves a series of pre-priority checks (410.6). ----Next, any waiting triggered effects (708) are added to the chain, and then that player gets priority.

410.6 Pre-priority checks are made in a series of waves. In each wave, the following checks are madesimultaneously. If one or more checks in a wave result in actions taking place, those actions take
place simultaneously (802), and then another wave of checks is made, until no actions take place. None of this uses the chain.
410.6a Character destruction
· All characters with 0 health are destroyed. This is different from destruction by fatal damage.
----· All characters with fatal damage (405.2) and non-zero health are destroyed. If such a
character was dealt damage since the last player got priority, it was destroyed by that damage.
410.6b All players who have been required to draw a card from an empty deck become decked (102.1a).
410.6c Attachment destruction
· Each attachment (400) attached to a Totem (305.3) is destroyed by the game (103.3).
· Each other attachment checks whether it’s attached to a host matching its host description
(400.5). If it’s not, it’s destroyed by the game. Its attach description (400.1) is ignored.
410.6d All tokens in non-play zones cease to exist (404.2b).
410.6e All damage on non-characters is removed (405.1).
410.6f All counters on face-down resources are removed (404.1b).
410.6g Each player who controls more than one location (306) must choose one and turn the rest facedown.

Look at 410.6a
After the combat window closes PPP comes in a series of waves. It will see that ally has fatal damage and destroy it. This happens before all awaiting triggers are added to the chain. The quests trigger got flaged in combat conclusion but is not added to the chain till after that ally is destroyed from PPP. Waiting triggers are added at the end the PPP checks are made.
So Aaron is correct. That ally will be in the graveyard before the counter is added to the quest.
Does this help?

---

World of Warcraft TCG Rules Lvl 3
WoW Minis Lvl 1
Huntik Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 2
The force is with you!!

I think I see the confusion here. You said

This would cause Justice Blindburn to complete first, now waiting for "When the next ally in your party is destroyed this turn, each opponent destroys an ally in his party."  Next the triggered effect of Circle of Blood, The completes adding a third arena token to .  At this time Player A (the turn player) may exhaust  activating it's power to create an Arena Gladiator ally token, this would be added to the chain.

You are correct that Justice Blindburn's trigger effect will resolve first. However the effect you are quoting is not the trigger effect it is the flip power. The flip power has already resolved (before combat resolution. So an ally in your party being destroyed (due to combat resolution) has already triggered and the effect on the chain is "each opponent destroys an ally in his party". 

So each opponent has to destroy an ally BEFORE the circle on blood gets its third counter.

---

WoW RK2
VS RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

Thank you, this is exactly where I was getting hung up.  Understanding where and when resolution takes place for different events is simple once they are put into context of section 410.  I'll be sure to study that more.

I also thought that the "flip power" of the hero created a "triggered effect" that was waiting to take place.  So that is a minor difference in wording in this case, but good to differentiate, thank you.

One final question in regards to this situation.  Would Player B's hero flip power be resolved during PPP when Araelun went to the graveyard and prior to the first priority window following combat resolution?  Or during the first available priority window where Player B's hero flip power would be added to the chain after the turn player's triggers (adding the counter to the location) have been added and thus resolve first.

---

Sean Ryberg
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW PM 1

1466854:

One final question in regards to this situation.  Would Player B's hero flip power be resolved during PPP when Araelun went to the graveyard and prior to the first priority window following combat resolution?  Or during the first available priority window where Player B's hero flip power would be added to the chain after the turn player's triggers (adding the counter to the location) have been added and thus resolve first.

The destruction of the ally due to fatal damage would trigger the triggered modifier from Justice Blindburn. This triggered effect would be added to the chain in that same run of PPP because the ally is destroyed before triggered effects are added to the chain.

Okay, just so I am really clear on how these pieces fit together.  Let's say we have our friend Arcanist Bartis sabotaging an player.

Arcanist Bartis, 2, Ally—Blood Elf Mage, 1 [Fire] ATK / 1 Health (Illidan-184C)
Scryer Reputation <p> Sabotage: Player <p> When Bartis sabotages a player, that player discards a card or destroys an ally in his party.

That player chooses. He can't choose to discard from an empty hand, or destroy an ally that can’t be destroyed (or that doesn’t exist).

In the case of Arcanist Bartis, when sabotage is resolved during combat resolution it would be too late for an opponent to do a quest in response in order to have more of a card selection to possibly discard from?

So if the opponent being sabotaged wanted to complete a quest for this purpose they would have to do so prior to combat resolution?

---

Sean Ryberg
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW PM 1

Yes, that is correct.

---

Simon Key

Player Management Level 4
WoW TCG Rules Knowledge Level 2
WoW Minis Rules Knowledge Level 2
Huntik TCG Rules Knowledge Level 1
Tournament Organizer Level 1
UDE Forums Moderator

Thanks Simon

---

Sean Ryberg
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW PM 1

1466854:

Okay, just so I am really clear on how these pieces fit together.  Let's say we have our friend Arcanist Bartis sabotaging an player.

Arcanist Bartis, 2, Ally—Blood Elf Mage, 1 [Fire] ATK / 1 Health (Illidan-184C)
Scryer Reputation

Sabotage: Player

When Bartis sabotages a player, that player discards a card or destroys an ally in his party.

That player chooses. He can't choose to discard from an empty hand, or destroy an ally that can’t be destroyed (or that doesn’t exist).

In the case of Arcanist Bartis, when sabotage is resolved during combat resolution it would be too late for an opponent to do a quest in response in order to have more of a card selection to possibly discard from?

So if the opponent being sabotaged wanted to complete a quest for this purpose they would have to do so prior to combat resolution?

Actually, this is not the case.

Look at 603.3:

603.3 As the last part of combat conclusion, all attackers, defenders, proposed attackers, and proposed
defenders are removed from combat (602.4), and then modifiers with duration “this combat” end.
Next, the combat step ends, and a priority window opens in the turn player’s action phase. Any
waiting triggered effects are added to the chain, and then the turn player gets priority.

Sabotage is a triggered effect as noted by the "When [this] sabotages a [thing]," template. This means that the sabotage trigger won't go onto the chain until after combat is over, but it can still be responded to like any other trigger.

---

Erik Mock
UD Judge Coordinator
WoW TCG Level 3
Player Management Level 4

This is what I am sketchy on and want to understand before Continentals.  In my original post on this thread is a case of two things happening, one the hero flip power, the other a triggered effect on the location card.  Also who's turn it is makes a difference in how these effects are placed on the chain, correct?

---

Sean Ryberg
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW PM 1

One thing I'd like to point out is that flipping a hero put's its effect on the chain immediately and it will resolve as that chain resolves.

Trigger effects trigger whenever the event occurs that would trigger it. However, it waits until there is a Priority point until it goes on the chain. Turn player puts his/her trigger effects on the chain in any order, then non-turn player does the same with their triggered effects.

So let's look at your scenarios.

Scenario 1

Player A (turn player) is in control of ally Vanda Skydaughter which has attacked Player B's ally Araelun. (I have chosen allies w/o powers to simplify the situation in question.)

Player B's hero is Justice Blindburn

Player A is in control of location Circle of Blood, The which has two arena counters on it and is in the ready position.

<Both players have enough resources available to fulfill the payment costs of all cards and effects.>

Prior to combat resolution Player B uses his flip power hoping to force Player A to destroy one of his allies once Araelun is destroyed.

At this point the Blindburn's effect would resolve before combat resolution. This means there is a trigger effect waiting out there that says "When the next ally in your party is destroyed this turn, each opponent destroys an ally in his party."

During combat resolution, damage will be dealt to both allies. This will Trigger the Circle of Blood's effect to add an arena counter. Araelun will be destroyed (during PPP) which will trigger the Player B's hero's trigger effect (not the flip effect).

When the next priorty point opens, turn player (player A) put's their triggered effects on the chain. Then Non-turn player (player B) puts their effects on the chain. So the chain looks like this:

Link 1: Add a counter to Circle of blood.
Link 2: Both players destroy an ally.

Link 2 resolves and both players must destroy an ally.
Link 1 resolves and puts the third arena counter on the location.

At that point player a may chose to use Circle of blood's payment effect, but the allies are already destroyed.

Secnario 2:

Let's say we have our friend Arcanist Bartis sabotaging an player.

Arcanist Bartis, 2, Ally—Blood Elf Mage, 1 [Fire] ATK / 1 Health (Illidan-184C)
Scryer Reputation <p> Sabotage: Player <p> When Bartis sabotages a player, that player discards a card or destroys an ally in his party.

That player chooses. He can't choose to discard from an empty hand, or destroy an ally that can’t be destroyed (or that doesn’t exist).

In the case of Arcanist Bartis, when sabotage is resolved during combat resolution it would be too late for an opponent to do a quest in response in order to have more of a card selection to possibly discard from?

So if the opponent being sabotaged wanted to complete a quest for this purpose they would have to do so prior to combat resolution?

I think Erik explained this clearly, but I'm going to show the chain.

Combat resolution will trigger the sabatoge so the next priority window will look like this:

Link 1: Sabatoged player discards a card or destroys an ally in his party.

At this point it is a normal chain with players passing priority and either player can respond before or after any link2 resolve.

There are no Trigger or Payment effects that resolve without first giving the opponent a chance to respond.

---

WoW RK2
VS RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

Thank you Spotsknight, this is how I thought the game sequence worked since I learned the finer points of the game, but for some reason the way certain responses were worded I started to think some things were resolving before PPP and during combat resolution it's self.

Dumbing it down to the specifics and describing the chain helps for me to visualize it a lot easier.  I think I'm going to create some diagrams of this and other examples and send them to UDE for people like me <chuckle>.  A picture is worth a thousand words, especially in cases like these.

Thank you for rescuing my sanity and letting me see I wasn't completely mistaken all this time.

Cheers

---

Sean Ryberg
WoW TCG RK 1
WoW PM 1