Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

So, I read through the Penalty Guidelines and am studying up for PM2, which I still plan to take at DMF:Boston.

But, as I'm reading through, I find a lof of it is out-dated with regards to World of Warcraft Miniatures.  There are a few instances that reference how the rules affect single-match games, but I'm wondering what else one has to be aware of when overseeing play in Minis with one-game matches.

At Charlotte, we skipped the 3 minute late game loss rule, going directlty to a match loss after 10 minutes and showed  a little leniency in players making multiple procedural errors.  Yet, when the hammer came down, it was after consulting with the head judge Skey and the UDE guy Ian.  I can't imagine that I would enjoy ever doing so again, because issuing my first game loss, which upgraded to a match loss, Friday morning due to an improper deck registration, left me hating life as a judge for a while.  I brought that hammer down against one of my friends from the forum, but based entirely on the rules and guidelines presented, it had to be done.  So yeah, I followed directions, seperate from my feelings about the person.

I just sorta wonder what philosophical changes or addendums are made to the penalty guidelines with regards to Single-Match games like WoW Minis.   Right now, I'm left with a lot of open questions from the Penalty Guidelines.  Some things are clear/cut, but it's how PE-Minors stack to an eventual game loss or a deck registration form are applied that make me wonder. Yeah, it really makes me wonder.

Feedback?

Cheers!

-teh Sig

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

This was actually much debated when VS system went to 1 game matches. The penalty guidelines were left as they were. So yes in a 1 game match the penalties can feel more severe, however in tournaments that have only one game, there are additional rounds to the overall tournament. Therefore the penalties are close to balancing out.

They still have a slightly greater impact than in a best 2 of 3 match, but the consequences of being more lenient is to make it easier for players to cheat. And that would be worse for the game over all.

It also makes a stronger teaching aid to the players to not make that mistake again.

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WoW RK2
VS RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

When a Game Loss penalty = Match Loss... players will realise they need to be more careful about what they do and do not do.  As Spots said, this was addressed when Vs went from best of 3 matches to 1 game matches.  The overall sentiment was, if the penalty is sufficient for a game loss, the game loss should be handed out even if that means it is also a match loss.  I do not believe there have been any changes in overall philosophy on this particular point.

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Dylan Northrup (aka Doc X)
Level 2 Vs Rules Knowledge, Player Management
Level 1 WoW Rules Knowledge, Tournament Organizer
Level 0 Time Management

Pretty much agree with the above posters. The only events I downgrade certain situations from gameloss to a warning are Sneak Peaks. I try to keep these fun and a stepping stone for new players (since less competitive players come to these) into the higher op events. These are one game matches and I feel costumer service is the best way to impact new players. Make sure you explain why you downgraded and that normally this penatly is a gameloss.

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World of Warcraft TCG Rules Lvl 3
WoW Minis Lvl 1
Huntik Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 2
The force is with you!!

Thank you all for the feedback. This gives me much to ponder as I study for the PM2 I'll be taking at DMF Boston.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

Taking from someone who has failed the PM2, make sure your fully aware and cover all the material that is required.  Bare in mind the "outdated" information and note those questions.  According to policy, I cannot take the test again until a more updated version of the PM2 test is written.  I failed the test for PM2 OVER 2 YEARS AGO!

Speaking from experince, make sure your ready..... 

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Sampson L.
LV2 Yugioh
LV1 Player Management
LV1 TO
LV1 VS
LV1 WOW
Lv1 WOW Minis
Bears are Mean!

Holy crap.

Thanks for the heads up, Thrall SDMF. Ha, as if I wasn't already nervous about this one!

Cheers!

-teh Sig

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

1118098:

Taking from someone who has failed the PM2, make sure your fully aware and cover all the material that is required.  Bare in mind the "outdated" information and note those questions.  According to policy, I cannot take the test again until a more updated version of the PM2 test is written.  I failed the test for PM2 OVER 2 YEARS AGO!

Speaking from experince, make sure your ready..... 

Have you talked to UD to see if there is a new version. I could of swear Ive meet people who failed it when it came out at gencon 2 years ago and have retaken and passed it now.

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World of Warcraft TCG Rules Lvl 3
WoW Minis Lvl 1
Huntik Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 2
The force is with you!!

It would depend on the version he took.  I do know that he took the most recent version of the test and was unable to test at one of the events in Tulsa late in 2008.

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Franklin Debrito
Player Management Lv4 / Yu-Gi-Oh! Lv3
VS System Lv1 / Specialist Lv2
World of Warcraft Lv1 / Tournament Organizer Lv1 / Huntik Lv1 / WoW Minis Lv1
UD Forums Moderator

Just wondering... Usually, if a Match Loss penalty is issued to both players simultaneously, the game ends in a Double Loss.
Also, if both players have already won one game and are issued a Game Loss penalty simultaneously, the game continues.
/edit: Uh, just re-reading this... Of course, I mean the match continues (with a new game)!

Now if Game Loss = Match Loss, would a double Game Loss penalty result in a Double Loss?

The only time a "Game Loss penalty = Match Loss" is when there are single game matches (as was the case in Vs. and is the case in WoW Minis).  In this scenario, there's no way both players would have one a game prior to receiving the double game loss.

Hope this clears things up.

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Dylan Northrup (aka Doc X)
Level 2 Vs Rules Knowledge, Player Management
Level 1 WoW Rules Knowledge, Tournament Organizer
Level 0 Time Management

I can not think of a scenario that you would give a double match loss (that does not mean it can't happen). However when we assign penalty, we are only assigning the single appropriate penalty. If someone gets a match loss, the match ends, and just a match loss is recorded, they are not issued game loss penalties. UD does not track the number of games played, won or lost.

Also in the EXTREMELY rare case that both players separately get a game loss penalty that game ends and they start a new game. The current game does not continue.

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WoW RK2
VS RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

About the only time I know of when a double match loss was issue was when both players commited Unsportsman-Major (Match Loss). I guess it could also happen if both players ruined there decks beyond repair or lost them at the start of match or during to get PE-Sevre (match loss).

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World of Warcraft TCG Rules Lvl 3
WoW Minis Lvl 1
Huntik Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 2
The force is with you!!

I'm sorry, I should have provided some examples...

Ok, here are the 3 cases:

1. In a World of Warcraft tournament (best of 3), a deck check occurs before game 1. Both players have Marked Cards - Major, resulting in a simultaneous Match Loss for both players.
This outcome is entered as a "Double Loss" in Mantis, giving no player the win.


2. In a World of Warcraft tournament (best of 3), both players have already won a game. In the third (and usually final) game, they find out that one of the players accidentally shuffled one of their opponent's cards into his deck (they use the same sleeves) after the previous game, making both decks illegal in game 3. This results in a Game Loss penalty for both players.
The penalty is recorded in Mantis, but the match is not entered as a Double Loss. A new (fourth) game begins to determine the winner. (At least this is the way we handled this here in Germany in the past.) The Game Loss penalties do not really have any impact in this very special case, besides from appearing in the players' penalty histories.


3. In a Huntik tournament (best of 1), a deck check occurs. Both players have an Illegal Deck(list).

Now my question was, does this result in a Double Loss as in scenario 1 because the Game Losses actually are Match Losses, or are they Game Losses after all and thus not able to result in a Double Loss, which in turn means this is handled similarly to scenario 2?

Also, if a Double Loss is the outcome, would it make any difference if one of the players was issued a regular Match Loss (e.g. deck check determines Illegal Deck for one player, Marked Cards - Major for the other player)?


Thanks for your answers!

/edit: @spotsknight: I just re-read my previous post, you're perfectly right, I mixed the wrong words...
In fact, I have to admit it was not written very clearly... I hope this post makes things better^^

Scenario 1 and 2 you are correct.

Scenario 3, your first guess was correct. It is exactly like scenario 2. You record the game losses and begin a new game. In single game matches a game loss results in a lost match, but it is not a match loss penalty. In the case of a rare double match loss penalty, neither player can win the match (due to the penalty). A game loss penalty does not prevent any player from winning a match.

So a double game loss would be the same as if they ended a game in a draw. You would simply start a new game.

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WoW RK2
VS RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1