Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

Hi Guys,

I was at the Continentals tournament in Indy for WoW. During one of my matches my opponent flipped to a page in his note pad which had his sideboard choices written out for different match ups.

I wouldn't normally be too concerned but considering it was a high level event I contemplated calling a judge. My understanding is outside notes are prohibited.

If I had called a judge what would have ensued? If this occurred at worlds would the judge do anything different?

Thanks,

Pip
Oregon

They cannot use outside notes in a match. So any notes written down before the tournament or during a previous match of the tournament are prohibited. As this counts as outside assistance and is not allowed, by notes or another person/device etc.

Edit: After doing some research I think the proper infraction for this action is an Unsporting Conduct -cheating (Penalty: Disqualification without Prize)          * Someone correct me if I am wrong*

Hope this helps,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

I'm not sure if the Note Taking rule is official for WoW as it is for Yu-Gi-Oh! but the fact is that any pre-written notes are considered cheating.

This would be as Garren stated, DQ w/o Prize and removal from the Dueling Arena.

It is also the main reason why the Yu-Gi-Oh! Card Catalog DS game is not legal even for its calculator function due to the fact it built-in Combos and notes.

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107-744-616
Circle of Tragedy Duels
YGORK2, PM1, TO1
UDE May Use My Card Ideas At Will!
EVERYTHING I SAY IS PERSONAL OPINION
Prepare for the coming Global Crisis

When doing my research Johnist I found that any outside assitance is prohibited in all games.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

Basically, outside notes are prohibited.. Note-taking during games is acceptible as long as it doesn't delay anything

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- Jon Lacey
- UDE Lv3 (YGO/PM)
- Chicago, IL

Thanks for the replys guys. For the player what is the best way to call a judge over with out making an awkward scene? Would you advice I leave the table to speak to a judge a few feet away or throw up my hand and explain what is happening in front of my opponent?

Thanks,

Pip

You should certainly raise your hand and call judge as that is the proper "judge fetching" technique . If you dont want to make a scene tell the judge in his ear what is happening and he will act acoordingly. There is no need to get out of your seat as that will cause more distraction than staying at your seat calling for judge, calling for judge happens all of the time getting up out of your seat to go talk to a judge about an issue that actually concerns both players does not happen often if not at all.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

This will be an item I'll be certain to add to my "Player Meeting" notes. I hold two player meetings, one right before the T.O. starts taking registration and another when the players are seated before handing in their deck lists.

Specifically calling "outside assistance" to their attention before the tournament starts will avoid confusion and clearly state to the players their boundaries. I already caution spectators and we move players that have finished their duels outside of the dueling area for this reason.

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Ken Maness
Pflugerville, Tx
RK 2 YGO, PM2, Specialist 2, TO 1

Yeah I do the same things at the events that I run rather it be a local or a regional, all of these are very good practices. Its a good idea to add this to the player meeting I did not think of this.

 

Thanks alot,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

Hey all im going to chime in on this one. As the situation is discribed here you do want to talk to that player and find out what the note is and when it was taken. It was said the note was taken at this event not before.The note was from a previous match. They can only use notes taken from the current game not any previous matches or games. However this should not be a DQ unless you honestly felt he was cheating. I dont feel  that this player cheated, although I did not investigate this situation. You should always do some sort of investigation before just throwing out a DQ.

You should tell them the appropriate policy about note taking on what is and isnt alloud. Seems to me he just wanted to see what he sideboarded in from an early match at this same event. This penalty should be an UNSportsman-Minor (warning) and educate them on policies. Did this damage the game, did this give the player an advantage over the other opponent that truely dispruted the outcome, is this going to take a lot of time to fix, what was this players intent and how much effort do you have to take to fix it? I dont see this as cheating or damaging the game beyond repair. Although we dont want him to take advantage of this, so a penatly is in order. Thats some of things I think about before applying a gameloss or above. Its very situation bassed.

 

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World of Warcraft Rules&Knowledge Lv2
Yugioh Rules&Knowledge Lv1
Player Management Lv2
The force is with you!!

I'm sorry, but the fact is he stated the guy had brought the notes on what to side against what type of deck with him from home which means he made the notes OUTSIDE the tournament, thus making it Outside Assistance.  This is Cheating, and is DQ w/o prize.

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107-744-616
Circle of Tragedy Duels
YGORK2, PM1, TO1
UDE May Use My Card Ideas At Will!
EVERYTHING I SAY IS PERSONAL OPINION
Prepare for the coming Global Crisis

Ok I see it says for different match ups not a different match. However I would still talk to the player and educate him on the note taking policies. I dont know what round this was caught in and would have be there to know what the player who violated the policies said about it. Yes he is responsible for knowing the policies before hand and should be held accountable for it if broken even unknowningly. I would probably not DQ him if was the HJ. Because someone can help him with his sidedeck before the event and build his sidedeck for him. All the note did was remind him what his friend said to do. I would give him a stern lecture about why we dont do this and give him an unsportsman-minor.

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World of Warcraft Rules&Knowledge Lv2
Yugioh Rules&Knowledge Lv1
Player Management Lv2
The force is with you!!

Every situation where this arrises is specific event sensitive. Yes before you give a player a DQ there must be an investigation... I am sure most judges that judge tournaments reguarly and read up on stuff know this. We were just coming to the consensus that this would be a DQ *in general* yes every case has its differences that may or may not result in a DQ. Certainly in this situation after investigation I would probably give him a DQ if the information the origional post provided is correct. I would consider using notes as to what to side in and out vs what matches to be cheating - using outside assistance. Part of the challenge of the game is to LEARN what to side in and out against what decks. This should be practiced with written notes before the tournament not during the tournament with written notes.

 

EDIT: As with every penalty most if not all judges know that you must educate the player about whatever situation it may be to keep repeat offenses from happening.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

 Do understand why you feel this should be a DQ due to using preevent notes to make a strategy before the event. You feel its cheating cause he is breaking a policy and is giving himself an advantage by not having to remember what he wants to side deck in and out per opposing hero. Im 100% with you that he is breaking a policy which he needs to be dealt with. Im not sure im understanding the degree of this action sence the notes are about something he was going to do but wanted a reminder during the event. Is this enough damage to the game and a broken of a policy to say ok your being removed from this event. This to me is a line that could be crossed either way as to what the player said when asked why did you bring notes about what to do with your sidedeck.

 At this moment I still think yes its unsportsman like conduct cause he did bring the notes inorder to not have to remember what his strategy was for his sidedeck. Others didnt get this advantage so its an unbalanced game state. I need some other opinions why this so sever to DQ when its about its not per say cheating by damaging a game unpurpose, hiding cards, or lying to players and staff inorder to corrupt the game. Was he hiding the notes from his opponent and lying whats on them? I know there are other reasons to remove someone from a tournament. Im not understanding how sever taking notes of your own cards for between games is so damaging to the game you need to DQ him from the get go.

Im standing by my answer as just educating him with a warning. My ears are open as to why im wrong cause Id like to agree with you if I can understand your level of thinking or with some more official answer as to the penalty in this senario. Im sorry I dont know everyones total experience that has posted in this. Perhaps im just thinking to much on the customer service side of things when this more of a policing issue with the book of rules.

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World of Warcraft Rules&Knowledge Lv2
Yugioh Rules&Knowledge Lv1
Player Management Lv2
The force is with you!!

This actually came up during a recent SJC. A player had a list of sidedeck substitutions to make against diffeent matchups. This is clear cut UC-Cheating. There is no educate with a warning when they are purposefully doing something against the rules. Especially at such a high level event as Continentals. This is listed in the penalty guidelines as cheating. Rememberng what to sidedeck is part of the game. The notes gives him an unfair advantage over other people who are following the policies.

Even if he player was under the impression that it was allowed (which happened at the SJC, and he could prove he was under that impression) it's still UC-cheating. When it comes to writing the report to UDE, thats when you can make a suggestion along the lines of, "He thought it was ok, I believe the DQ is punishment enough and no suspension should be given." However that comes from the HJ's report.

To figure out what penalty to give someone, you find out what they did in the penalty guidelines. Then you look at that section and it tels you the penalty for the infraction. Don't try to reverse engineer infractions by deciding on the penalty frst then finding something in the penalty guidelines to justify it.

To unemployed101, you should've called a judge. Whenever your unsure on anything, call a judge. The judge will then proceed to investigate. This also falls under the player responsbilities in the tournament policies. It's better to be safe then sorry!

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Your Friendly Neighbourhood Canadian Judge!
YGO RK L3
VS RK L2
WoW RK L1
PM L2