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Prophet Velen, 10, Alliance
Draenei Shaman—Elemental, 2A 3R 10H
Lightning Bolt [T3R3M6] (Nature)
[Crit]: Each damaged enemy takes 1 damage.
Call of Fire: When a non-pet ally character (including this character) is destroyed, each enemy takes 1 damage.
Legendary: Awards double VP when destroyed. You can play no more than 1 legendary character.

First if one of Velens allies dies does call of fire hit enemy totems? 304.2 Totem tokens can’t be affected by AOE abilities. They can be attacked and targeted like characters, but they aren’t considered characters for any other purpose. Abilities referring to “allies” or “enemies” can refer to totem tokens, but those referring to “ally characters” or “enemy characters” can’t.

Rule 304.2 ablilities that say enemies and call of fire says each enemy takes on damage so it should hit enemy totems right? I ruled that it did.

Second instance Velen targets a enemy and scores a crit one of the figures that the crit damages character that has
Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros, 4, Class DkPaShWa
Equipment—Weapon, Two-Handed (1)
When this character is dealt attack damage, the attacker takes 1 damage.
[T4R1P8] (Melee)
[Crit]: Make a [M3] (Fire) attack against a defender.

Does Velen take a 1 damg. I ruled no per
600.1 An attack is an ability with an amount of physical or magic power. Nothing else is an attack.

Thanks in advance for the help.

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“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a
monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.” -Friedrich Nietzsche-

You get two "yes" from me.
I think you ruled right because:

1.)

each enemy takes 1 damage.

Abilities referring to “allies” or “enemies” can refer to totem tokens

That seems totally logical for me, that the totem gets the damage.

2.)

Each damaged enemy takes 1 damage.

When this character is dealt attack damage

There is no attack damage for me, just damage, so the poor Sulfuras does not damage our heroic Velen. :)

CR v1.05:

304.4      A totem token can be damaged only by the following:

304.4a   An ability that targets it.

304.4b  An attack that has been redirected (703.1g) to it.

304.4c   Triggered abilities that affect an “attacker” if that totem was attacking.

304.3d  Triggered abilities that affect a “defender” if that totem was defending.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

From my perspective, you have made the correct call for each of the instances you've mentioned.

Velen's Call of Fire ability triggers when a non-pet ally character dies. And once that trigger condition is satisfied, Velen's ability shall deal 1 damage to each enemy. Unlike the trigger condition which clearly states what type of ally has to die, the triggered effect universally damages all enemies.

As for your call on the Sulfuras incident, I couldn't agree more. You have also quoted the correct line in the OCR. 600.1 invariably defines what an attack is and since the trigger condition for Sulfuras requires actual attack damage, the trigger effect does not happen.

Great question there!

Abilities that say, "each," "every," or "all" do not target and cannot affect totems. While Velen's ability does affect each enemy, it does not affect enemy totems, just enemy characters and pets.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

I see the source of the argument. In the case of triggering Velen's Call of Fire, CR 304.2 mentions that it can affect totems whilst damaging it does not satisfy any of the conditions in 304.4(a-d).

I would still rule that it would damage the totem simply because of the lack of better wording for Call of Fire. 304.2 allows the totem to be affected and I couldn't even imagine how the text of Call of Fire would read if it has to mention "target". IMHO that's my shot at it.

2861419:

I see the source of the argument. In the case of triggering Velen's Call of Fire, CR 304.2 mentions that it can affect totems whilst damaging it does not satisfy any of the conditions in 304.4(a-d).

I would still rule that it would damage the totem simply because of the lack of better wording for Call of Fire. 304.2 allows the totem to be affected and I couldn't even imagine how the text of Call of Fire would read if it has to mention "target". IMHO that's my shot at it.

Velen's Call of Fire cannot damage totems. If you ruled that it could, your players would laugh at you, call you names, and kick your dog.

CR v1.05:

304.4      A totem token can be damaged only by the following:

304.4a   An ability that targets it.

304.4b  An attack that has been redirected (703.1g) to it.

304.4c   Triggered abilities that affect an “attacker” if that totem was attacking.

304.3d  Triggered abilities that affect a “defender” if that totem was defending.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

Thank you for the reply, teh Sig. I can't say if the pun was intended in your 2nd statement but I could assure you that its never going to happen in the community where I play. If I hit a nerve to receive such a response, I apologize.

2465615:

2861419:

I see the source of the argument. In the case of triggering Velen's Call of Fire, CR 304.2 mentions that it can affect totems whilst damaging it does not satisfy any of the conditions in 304.4(a-d).

I would still rule that it would damage the totem simply because of the lack of better wording for Call of Fire. 304.2 allows the totem to be affected and I couldn't even imagine how the text of Call of Fire would read if it has to mention "target". IMHO that's my shot at it.

Velen's Call of Fire cannot damage totems. If you ruled that it could, your players would laugh at you, call you names, and kick your dog.

CR v1.05:

304.4      A totem token can be damaged only by the following:

304.4a   An ability that targets it.

304.4b  An attack that has been redirected (703.1g) to it.

304.4c   Triggered abilities that affect an “attacker” if that totem was attacking.

304.3d  Triggered abilities that affect a “defender” if that totem was defending.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

I guess we'll just have to wait until Call of Fire receives its erratum to read as you have supposed it should: "...deal 1 damage to each enemy character.".

Thanks again!

 

2465615:

Abilities that say, "each," "every," or "all" do not target and cannot affect totems. While Velen's ability does affect each enemy, it does not affect enemy totems, just enemy characters and pets.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

Pets are considered characters, by the way, as defined in the glossary of the CR:

Character: Each pet is a character. Each character has a personal clock. Totem tokens can be attacked and targeted like characters, but they aren’t considered characters for any other purpose.

Cheers!

 

Back up for a moment and try this again.

OCR:

Prophet Velen, 10, Alliance
Draenei Shaman—Elemental, 2A 3R 10H
Lightning Bolt [T3R3M6] (Nature)
[Crit]: Each damaged enemy takes 1 damage.
Call of Fire: When a non-pet ally character (including this character) is destroyed, each enemy takes 1 damage.
Legendary: Awards double VP when destroyed. You can play no more than 1 legendary character.

"Each" does not target. Totems cannot be affected by effects that do not target them.  If a totem is attacking a paladin with Sulfuras, the current rules allow the totem to be hit by Sulfuras' trigger.

OCR:

Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros, 4, Class DkPaShWa
Equipment—Weapon, Two-Handed (1)
When this character is dealt attack damage, the attacker takes 1 damage.
[T4R1P8] (Melee)
[Crit]: Make a [M3] (Fire) attack against a defender.

This is because the rules clearly outline that attacking totems can be affected by effects that affect attackers.  This is one of the new ways in which totems function.

Call of Fire does not look for attacking or defending enemies, so those clauses do not apply.  No attack is being redirected to it by Call of Fire, so that caluse does not apply.  We are left with one remaining clause for what can affect totems: Abilites that target them.

CR v1.05:

304.4      A totem token can be damaged only by the following:

304.4a   An ability that targets it.

304.4b  An attack that has been redirected (703.1g) to it.

304.4c   Triggered abilities that affect an “attacker” if that totem was attacking.

304.4d  Triggered abilities that affect a “defender” if that totem was defending.

Abilities target only when they say target or use the ranged icon.  Call of Fire does neither of these things.  "Each" is not a phrase that targets, so totems cannot be affected by effects that say "each" instead of saying target or using the ranged icon.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

 

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

And Shadow Bolt Volley´s crit can damage totems?  (Varimathras)

:Deal 2 damage to each character in play.

I say no... but..., please confirm this!

Thanks

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1758547:

And Shadow Bolt Volley´s crit can damage totems?  (Varimathras)

:Deal 2 damage to each character in play.

I say no... but..., please confirm this!

Thanks

OCR:

Varimathras, 10, Horde
Nathrezim Warlock—Affliction, 2A 2R 11H
Shadow Bolt Volley [T3R3M5] (Shadow)
[Crit]: Deal 2 damage to each character in play.
Vampiric Aura: When an ally within [R2] (including this character) deals attack damage, heal 1 damage from that ally.
Legendary: Awards double VP when destroyed. You can play no more than 1 legendary character.

Totems are not characters and cannot be affected by abilities that affect only characters, even if that ability targeted.   Shadow Bolt Volley's crit does not target.  It lacks the word target and the range symbol.  Also, it says "each," and I've never seen an ability in any game I've every played where "each," "every," or "all" targets.  "Each" means everything on the board that can be affected, but totems are immune to all effects that don't target, unless they fall within the additional new guidelines on how totems work.  I've cited that segment of the CR twice in this thread already, so forgive me for not doing so again.

Cheers!

-teh Sig

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Level 2 Minis Judge.

Hi, Angel! Thanks for posting your inquiry. You're right about making the call that Varimathras' Shadow Bolt Volley's crit doesn't affect totems. That's because the crit effect clearly states which units in play would be affected: :Deal 2 damage to each character in play. Please excuse me for pulling up the reference a 2nd time, but here's how the CR's glossary defines "character":

Character: Each pet is a character. Each character has a personal clock. Totem tokens can be attacked and targeted like characters, but they aren’t considered characters for any other purpose.

Varimathras' apocalyptic crit has the potential to wipe the board clean and leaving only totems in its wake! hehehe

Hope this helps and thanks again!

Just to add some more CR support to back up Siggie's answers...

WoW Minis Comp Rules:

407.1    A character’s ability targets if it uses the word “target” or the range icon. To be legal, a target must be within the specified range of that character, and that character must have unblocked LOS to that target.

As Siggie has pointed out (more than once), totems can only be damaged by those abilities that specifically target them.

Velen's Call of Fire ability doesn't use the word target or have a [Range] icon; therefore, it does not target.  Since it does not target, it cannot damage a totem.

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Simon Key

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