Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

What would the Appropriate Penalty for Double Sleeving be?

I have a friend who would consistently double sleeve (although lucky for him it was always the same graphic sleeve inside a plain white one) for the purpose of keeping his cards from falling out of his sleeves.  Now, Double Sleeving is clearly against the Tournament Policies, as it says a card must only be in a Single Sleeve.  So, what would the proper penalty be?

Would it be Marked Cards (risk of a slightly different Design/color showing through the backs of the white sleeves)?

Would it be an Invalid Deck (because it is in multiple sleeves and each card is only supposed to be in 1 sleeve?)

What would the penalty be?  Would we be able to give them the time to undouble, and apply "tardiness" penalties for not being "ready" to play with a "tournament legal" deck?

---

107-744-616
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG Forum
Yu-Gi-Oh! & Anime Forums

This is a hard one but I would say it is a Invalid Deck,

Deck Error Penalties

This group of penalties covers infractions associated with registering incorrect contents on a decklist or playing with an illegal deck. If a deck error is discovered before the start of round 1, it is acceptable to correct the player’s decklist without a penalty prior to the start of the round.

Deck Error—Illegal Deck (Penalty: Game Loss)

This penalty applies to infractions that involve presenting an illegal deck during a tournament. It is usually appropriate to fix the deck to match the contents of the deck registration sheet. If the deck registration sheet is also illegal, it is appropriate to fix the deck by making it legal first and then fix the deck registration sheet to match the deck. This penalty also applies to games that use side decks.

Double sleeving makes the deck invalid and a player cant continue a game while they have a double sleeved deck. If in a game the game goes to game 2 and the player can be given the time to fix the deck during the time for sideboarding. If game 1 hasn't started and this is caught the player would need to fix his deck and make it legal and tardiness infractions would still be applied as this would slow down the event to grant time extensions to fix a major sleeving error.

This is just my thoughts though i don't know the official ruling.

---

Leader of Team Epslion

Lv.1 Yu-Gi-Oh Rules
Lv.2 Player management (As of SJC San Fran 1/11/09 Thanks Alex ^_^)
Lv.1 Tournament Organizer
Lv.1 Specialist
Lv.1 Huntik Rules

Generally speaking, if you are going to require a player to resleeve, then you give marked cards - major.  There are a couple of reasons that I know of for this.  The first is that if you are requiring the entire deck to be resleeved, there is something pretty bad about them, which would be MC-Major.  The other is that resleeving takes quite a bit of time and you are delaying the tournament so that player can resleeve his deck and then play the full round.

In the case of double sleeving, you obviously can't allow the player to play the deck like it is.  This means he needs to resleeve (something as simple as pulling off the second sleeve in this case should do, but will necessitate a second deck check as the inner sleeves may have been marked).  This is quite harsh for something so simple, but it is the player's responsibility to be current on all Upper Deck policies, so they have nobody to blame but themselves.

---

Lvl 3 Yugioh Rules Knowledge
Lvl 2 Player Management
Lvl 1 Tournament Organizer, Specialist, Vs RK, WoW TCG RK, WoW Minis RK, Huntik RK

Marked Cards - Major is what, a Match Loss?

---

107-744-616
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG Forum
Yu-Gi-Oh! & Anime Forums

Marked Cards - Major is a match loss penalty...But I don't think it can be applied here, the cards aren't actually marked.

It's a tricky offense to classify because it doesn't seem to fit straight into a defined penalty. Plus we have to remember that all of the guidelines except some of the unsporting conduct penalties assume the player hasn't performed the action intentionally, something which you can't say about a player double sleeving their deck.

You can argue that they didn't intentionally break the tournament policy, but the same policy says players should know their responsibilities.

For me, the closest penalty that can be applied to this would be Unsporting Conduct - Minor. The player has unintentionally broken the tournament rules in a minor, fixable (albeit between games) way.

Of course that assumes the player didn't know the policy regarding double sleeving, if they did then the penalty has to be an Unsporting Conduct - Cheating penalty for an intentional breach of the rules.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

1447125:

Of course that assumes the player didn't know the policy regarding double sleeving, if they did then the penalty has to be an Unsporting Conduct - Cheating penalty for an intentional breach of the rules.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

More needs to be in place in order for the infraction to be Unsporting Conduct-Cheating.

1. Intention, 2. Knowledge of the policy, 3. Advantage or potential advantage gained.

So you have to ask yourself. Did the player double sleeve the deck with the intention of gaining or potentially gaining an unfair advantage? If the answer is yes, by all means, use Unsporting Conduct-Cheating. If your don't believe though that the player was trying to gain an unfair advantage by double sleeving their deck then it would be an inapropriate penalty.

Ahh, point taken. That would mean that the infraction shouldn't really go beyond a minor unsporting conduct penalty, unless the player continued to use a double sleeved deck, right?

Sometimes its ok to apply a warning in the middle of a match and then have them resleeve after that match. This is method if a player has all dirty sleeves with no patern at all. Sleeves are all the same type they just dirty. Ive walked by a table and seen players deck in the first 2 rounds and told them to after this match resleeve your deck. This doesnt not hold up the tournament and brings there deck up to par. You just have to use your best call if the cards are uniformly doulbe sleeved or if there is a partern or not.

Since this is not really anything that is directly pointed out in the pentalty guidelines as of yet. I would put it under unsports minor and apply the warning. Have him fix it right after the match and offer to help him undo this if I have time inbetween. If it looks like you can do it fast mid match (by just pulling off one sleeve off of 60 cards) id help him after that game if possible.

This is assuming I came to the conclusion he was not cheating and did and oops.

---

World of Warcraft TCG Rules Lvl 3
WoW Minis Lvl 1
Huntik Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 2
The force is with you!!

842510:

What would the Appropriate Penalty for Double Sleeving be?

I have a friend who would consistently double sleeve (although lucky for him it was always the same graphic sleeve inside a plain white one) for the purpose of keeping his cards from falling out of his sleeves.  Now, Double Sleeving is clearly against the Tournament Policies, as it says a card must only be in a Single Sleeve.  So, what would the proper penalty be?

Would it be Marked Cards (risk of a slightly different Design/color showing through the backs of the white sleeves)?

Would it be an Invalid Deck (because it is in multiple sleeves and each card is only supposed to be in 1 sleeve?)

What would the penalty be?  Would we be able to give them the time to undouble, and apply "tardiness" penalties for not being "ready" to play with a "tournament legal" deck?

Why not just do the easy thing and fix it before the tournament starts then you don't have to worry about which penalty this falls under???  In your post you said he was a friend of yours.  Let him know before the event to fix the problem.  If he doesn't now you have a whole different issue.

 

I have read in other posts you discussing this with someone else about this person always doing this.  Seems like if you approached the player/friend outside of the tournament BEFORE the event this would be solved.

---

Chris Goff
Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM3
TO L1
WoW Minis RK1, WoW RK1, Huntik RK1

It is a bit of a stretch, but for a first occurance you could maybe use the option for disregarding instrucrions from a tournament offical (official document :})

 

P-30 Unsporting Conduct—Minor (Penalty: Warning)

Players are expected to behave in a sporting and professional manner toward other players, spectators, and tournament officials. This penalty is appropriate for minor violations of the tournament rules.

Depending on the audience of the tournament, the head judge may wish to be more or less lenient when it comes to swearing. At a junior event, penalties should be enforced for swearing, but at an event with all adults, the judge has freedom to enforce penalties based on the age of the players present.

Examples:

• A player leaves scraps of paper or food on his table after a match.

• A player swears during a tournament in the tournament area.

• A player uses inappropriate or offensive gestures.

• A player insults her opponent.

A player does not follow a tournament official’s instructions.

And then go up from there.  We have to remember that we serve a number of functions and one is ensure that the players have anjoyable time. If this is the first occurance of this issue that you know of, you might want to start with the warning and have them resleeve as soon as possible, but before the next match at the latest.

 

edit to correct a spelling of server to serve (hard tying 1 handed - I broke my arm just before new years)

---

YGO Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 1
TO lvl 1
Member of Team Paradox
----------------------
That which does not kill me, just royally pisses me off! And Konami is looking to get me beyond even that....

1425175:

It is a bit of a stretch, but for a first occurance you could maybe use the option for disregarding instrucrions from a tournament offical (official document :})

 

P-30 Unsporting Conduct—Minor (Penalty: Warning)

A player does not follow a tournament official’s instructions.

And then go up from there.  We have to remember that we server a number of functions and one is ensure that the players have anjoyable time. If this is the first occurance of this issue that you know of, you might want to start with the warning and have them resleeve as soon as possible, but before the next match at the latest.

I wondered how long it would take before someone struck on "Player doesn't follow a tournament official's instructions."

I've seen the "failure to follow a tournament official's instructions" escalate into a DQ when a player repeatedly and flatly refused to follow direct instructions, but honestly, I've only seen it happen once - warning, game loss, match loss, DQ. In a situation like that, it's usually not about the double sleeving, or the headset, or whatever else it is, it's the player refusing to accept the official's authority.

I'm a big fan of Chris's point, too, about doing what we can to fix this before the tournament starts. It avoids so much pointless trouble later on.


Oh- requiring the player to change sleeves isn't automatically a Marked Cards - Major. I have had players change for minor. Besides, in this case, are you not only requiring one set of sleeves to be removed, rather than actually swapping all the sleeves?

Also, double sleeved cards are not automatically Marked Cards. I double sleeve for casual play when I'm using the gorgeous card sleeves I got in Tokyo, to keep them in pristine condition. My cards are not marked. They are double sleeved. Not the same thing - unless there are markings or the sleeves are distinguishable from other sleeves in the deck, a marked card penalty cannot be applied.

Julia

---

Julia Hedberg

Regular Jane
I have some certification levels, too.

I would like to add one more thing (based on other forum posts).

If this person doing the double sleeeving is someone you know ( a team mate for example - wink-wink), and who you have mentioned this issue to previously, and they show up with cards double sleeved, you should apply the maximum penalty, as they have been warned in advance and chose to disregard the warning. I would also advise them before the start of the tornament that this would occur if they show up double sleeved.

---

YGO Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 1
TO lvl 1
Member of Team Paradox
----------------------
That which does not kill me, just royally pisses me off! And Konami is looking to get me beyond even that....

I'm going to disagree on this one rshields. If it is someone you know is likely to be bringing double sleeves, I would recommend you follow Chris' suggestion and before the tournament begins remind them that they need to make sure their deck is not double sleeved. Or if you forget before the tournament starts then check as soon as you remember and issue the warning at that point. If they still fail to remove the second sleeve then you can upgrade the penalty.

It is possible that even with the 'advanced' warning they forgot to remove the second sleeve or they might be leaving them on until the tournament started to protect some gorgeous sleeves they got in Tokyo .

---

WoW RK2
VS RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

Ok, but what if this person is someone you know (maybe they are even a team mate of yours), and that you have already told them 2, 3 or 4 times outside of the the game that double sleeving is not allowed and that if they showed up to a sanctioned game with their cards double sleeved you would have to penalize them and they then show up with the cards double sleeved?

Do you still behave as though they had no advance notice of this?

---

YGO Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 1
TO lvl 1
Member of Team Paradox
----------------------
That which does not kill me, just royally pisses me off! And Konami is looking to get me beyond even that....

1425175:

Ok, but what if this person is someone you know (maybe they are even a team mate of yours), and that you have already told them 2, 3 or 4 times outside of the the game that double sleeving is not allowed and that if they showed up to a sanctioned game with their cards double sleeved you would have to penalize them and they then show up with the cards double sleeved?

Do you still behave as though they had no advance notice of this?

Now they have crossed that line I referred to earlier in my other post.  Asked them to remove the sleeves or you will have to assign a penalty.  If they do not comply I would assign a UC Minor - warning - failure to follow a tournament officials instructions.  If they still don't comply then issue the next infraction .  This has already been covered in Julia's post.

 

The point I was trying to make in my first post was less try to use common sense here and not be throwing penalities around for no reason but to be throwing penalities around.  If you know the player/friend, take care of the situation before the event.  If they don't want to comply, you have done what you can to prevent this situation.  It now falls to the player/friend to comply.  If you must issue penalities then you must to uphold the interigity of the event for everyone else.

---

Chris Goff
Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM3
TO L1
WoW Minis RK1, WoW RK1, Huntik RK1