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Now, normally "Red Dragon Archfiend" cannot destroy any Defense-Position monster by battle... 

Player A controls "Red Dragon Archfiend" + "Goyo Guardian"
Player B controls "Stardust Dragon" + "Red Dragon Archfiend" + "Collosal Fighter" all in Defense Position.

Player A's RDA attacks Player B's RDA and when Player A's RDA activates to destroy everything in defense on Opponent's field, Player B chains SD, tributing SD to Negate and Destroy Player A's RDA.

Now, since Damage Calculation still occured, will Player B's RDA still be destroyed?

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842510:

Now, normally "Red Dragon Archfiend" cannot destroy any Defense-Position monster by battle... 

Player A controls "Red Dragon Archfiend" + "Goyo Guardian"
Player B controls "Stardust Dragon" + "Red Dragon Archfiend" + "Collosal Fighter" all in Defense Position.

Player A's RDA attacks Player B's RDA and when Player A's RDA activates to destroy everything in defense on Opponent's field, Player B chains SD, tributing SD to Negate and Destroy Player A's RDA.

Now, since Damage Calculation still occured, will Player B's RDA still be destroyed?

This question hurts my brain.

2 scenarios are to possibly occur.

1:  Monsters that are considered "destroyed by battle" would unofficially happen in sub-step 4 as when doing the life point damage/damage calc. it's been determined who has the higher value and as such, the RDD (Red Daemon's Dragon, Red dragon archfiend is a chump name) would be considered destoyed.

2:  A simply no because it has NOT been considered destroyed since it never went to sub-step 5.

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I know...  it's a really tough question...  That's why I brought it up.

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107-744-616
Circle of Tragedy Duels
YGORK2, PM1, TO1
UDE May Use My Card Ideas At Will!
EVERYTHING I SAY IS PERSONAL OPINION
Prepare for the coming Global Crisis

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I'm not a judge, but my view is:

Red dragon archfiend's effect activates before the attacked monster has been considered destroyed, as far as I know. That's why monsters with effects that would activate when being destroyed by battle dont active, because they're destroyed by RDA's effect instead.
Now since RDA's effect activates which would destroy every defending monster, and stardust dragon answers tributing itself and destroying it, since RDA hadnt scheudled the defending monster for destruction, and it's no longer in the field, I'd say that the defending monster survives.

haha, we met, you made it sound like the topic thread had more repsonses >.>

newho....
for newcomers

RED DRAGON :
     If this card attacks a Defense Position monster your opponent controls, destroy all Defense Position monsters your opponent controls after damage calculation.

His effect is occurring in Sub Step 4, so as a result, stardust is also negating it during this time.

His effect is attempting to destroy the monster, so the monster being attacked is NOT being destroyed by battle. It never reaches Sub Step 5/6 because attack could not go through because of Stardust destroying Red Dragon.Other then that tho, Red Dragon can never destroy a monster that is in def position because of its mandatory effect.  Battle is immediately ended because of Stardust getting rid of Red Dragon.

Red Dragon is destroyed, Stardust comes back at end, none of player B's monsters are destroyed :D

Remember people

Sub Step 3/4 are only Damage Calculation steps. Sub Step 5 is where monsters are to be considered destroyed, and Sub Step 6 is where they are being sent to the graveyard.

Damage calculation has already happened, B's RDA will be destroyed by battle since A's RDA has a higher ATK than it's DEF

there's nothing that prevents the destruction by battle, i don't see why destroying the attacking monster would have any impact after damage calculation

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José Enrique Ybarra
UD Spanish Forums Moderator
Moderador de "Yu-Gi-Oh! Rules Spanish"

His effect is occurring in Sub Step 4, so as a result, stardust is also negating it during this time.

Why is everybody saying this about Red Dragon Archfiend? Its effect absolutely cannot activate in the Sub-Step 4 because that is still damage calculation!

If this card attacks a Defense Position monster your opponent controls, destroy all Defense Position monsters your opponent controls after damage calculation.

I've also seen this point a few times:

His effect is attempting to destroy the monster, so the monster being attacked is NOT being destroyed by battle.

Perzeus brought this up already, but I want to elaborate a little bit.

In "Sub-Step 5", the very first thing we do is mark the card as destroyed by battle. It is very important to note that nothing is actually "destroyed" at this point, in some sense. So, if Stardust Dragon negates our Red Dragon Archfiend, it does not matter. The other Red Dragon Archfiend will still be destroyed by battle, since it has already been marked.

This is consistent with the ruling on Red Dragon Archfiend v. Giant Rat. The reason lies in the fact that we only mark cards for destruction in "Sub-Step 5". When Red Dragon Archfiend attacks the Giant Rat, Red Dragon Archfiend's effect will activate in the middle of "Sub-Step 5", destroying all defense position cards. "Destroying", in this sense, implies sending cards to the graveyard immediately. So, Giant Rat has not been "destroyed by battle" but instead "destroyed by effect".


Please let me know if you have any comments.

-Matt

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Level 3
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Sorry Matt.  Red Dragon Archfiend is unique because his effect activates in the same substep as Don Zaloog (sub step 4), as originally posted by curtis in his Metagame article and validated by the TDGS rulings...

Red Dragon Archfiend.   If this card attacks a Defense Position monster your opponent controls, destroy all Defense Position monsters your opponent controls after damage calculation. During your End Phase, destroy all other monsters you control that did not declare an attack this turn.]

*  "Red Dragon Archfiend's" effect activates after damage calculation in the Damage Step, before the effects of flipped Flip Effect monsters or the effects of cards like "D.D. Warrior" activate.

Enjoy the game

D1,

Can you show a link to Curtis' article and perhaps quote the excerpt you are referring to?

I don't see how the ruling you cited necessarily shows that Red Dragon Archfiend activates in "Sub-Step 4". Because, it is still consistent to claim that Red Dragon Archfiend happens precisely after marking cards for destruction and before anything else. And, if anything, that ruling seems to exactly make my point, since it expressly says "...after damage calculation..."

Thanks.

-Matt

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Level 3
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A pleasure... 

http://www.metagame.com/yugioh.aspx?tabid=33&ArticleId=10070

And for consideration for the ruling, you also know that Red Dragon A activates after damage calculation (step 3) and before Warrior Lady (step 5) and does not SEGOC with Warrior Lady.  All this drives us to substep 4 (apply damages).

Enjoy  the game

I agree with Perzeus, just because it's the most intuitive thing to happen.

Let's say a dragon has super duper poison fire breath. It's so poisonous that before a prey dies to fiery hotness, it dies to poison first. Now if a particular prey is somehow immune to the poison and perhaps is able to deflect the poison back to the dragon, it's still gonna die from the already breathed out fire.

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http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/community/forums/post/1321840.aspx

skey:

I'm in agreement with Tsui

Thanks for the link. I suppose you are referring to this:

You activate this effect after damage calculation, when the effects of cards like Robbin’ Goblin and Don Zaloog activate.

I think there is a little bit of ambiguity in this statement. I might first point out that it clearly states, "...activate this effect after damage calculation..." There is a little confusion when it goes on to say, "when the effects of cards like...Don Zaloog activate". I think this means to give an example of things that go on in the damage step. It does not imply that Red Dragon Archfiend activates at the same time as cards like Don Zaloog.

And for consideration for the ruling, you also know that Red Dragon A activates after damage calculation (step 3) and before Warrior Lady (step 5) and does not SEGOC with Warrior Lady.  All this drives us to substep 4 (apply damages).

Again, I should iterate that Sub-Step 3 and Sub-Step 4 of the Damage Step are still damage calculation. Red Dragon Archfiend absolutely cannot go in there, for previously stated reasons. So, I claim that it is consistent for Red Dragon Archfiend to go in Sub-Step 5 and still not SEGOC with D.D. Warrior, for example. This comes from the fact that we have Red Dragon Archfiend v. D.D. Warrior (as you mentioned before). This simply gives us the condition that Red Dragon Archfiend automatically resolves before effects like D.D. Warrior. In other words, we do not SEGOC with this combination of cards only because of a ruling that tells us how these cards interact with the game mechanics.

-Matt

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Level 3
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348351:

Thanks for the link. I suppose you are referring to this:

You activate this effect after damage calculation, when the effects of cards like Robbin’ Goblin and Don Zaloog activate.

I think there is a little bit of ambiguity in this statement. I might first point out that it clearly states, "...activate this effect after damage calculation..." There is a little confusion when it goes on to say, "when the effects of cards like...Don Zaloog activate". I think this means to give an example of things that go on in the damage step. It does not imply that Red Dragon Archfiend activates at the same time as cards like Don Zaloog.

Hmm.   Obviously we are on different paths..  Points for you to consider... 

1) Curtis did not say "when flip effects activate" as they still will.  He could have said a number of things other than When Don Zaloog, which is very explicit.

2) In any substep, if you have two effects they will form a chain, and SEGOC applies.

3) The timing of destroyed.  At the start of substep 5, monsters are destroyed by battle.  Its too late for them to be destroyed by effect. 

Sub-step 5: Resolve effects.

• From this point forward, monsters are considered "destroyed". So monsters destroyed by "Dark Ruler Ha Des" cannot activate their effects, destroyed monsters are not eligible for selection by card effects such as "Hane Hane", etc.

Enjoy the game

 

 

1) Curtis did not say "when flip effects activate" as they still will.  He could have said a number of things other than When Don Zaloog, which is very explicit.

2) In any substep, if you have two effects they will form a chain, and SEGOC applies.

3) The timing of destroyed.  At the start of substep 5, monsters are destroyed by battle.  Its too late for them to be destroyed by effect.

In response to:

1) At this point, I consider any point regarding Curtis' particular statement null (including my own, of course) - coming from either side, we can all agree that the statement we are referencing is simply too ambiguous. Maybe you would care to contact him for some clarification.

2) Except when a ruling tells us not to, which was the claim that I made.

3) I don't agree. Please see my argument on "marking as destroyed" in some previous posts, and critique that as you see fit.

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