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Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

Last post 07-26-2009, 6:36 PM by Erik Mock. 69 replies.
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  •  04-14-2008, 10:52 AM 1126205 in reply to 1122917

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    I wanted to point to a thread currently on the World of Warcraft forums. Apparently, people have very mixed feelings about shuffling others their decks...

    A must read, I reckon, for everyone who has posted anything in this thread.

    http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/wow/community/forums/1/1126203/ShowThread.aspx

    Patrick "Patrigan" Provinciael
    World of Warcraft RK 2
    Player Management 1
    Belgium
  •  04-14-2008, 11:20 AM 1126251 in reply to 1126205

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    Perhaps in WoW people have mixed feelings and I can understand that in that particular game, the players seem to be more trusting and "seem" to be less apt to look for ways to cheat. I think if you had the same thread for Yugioh though you'd get a much different response from those players, I'm willing to bet they'd insist on shuffling their opponent's deck...and wouldn't consider it rude in the least.
  •  04-19-2008, 5:41 AM 1132547 in reply to 1126251

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    If pre-ordering of your deck, even before it is shuffled, becomes allowed it will only give some players another opportunity to attempt an unfair advantage.  Leave the rule as is.  It is simple with no allowance to misinterpretation.  There shall be no pre-ordering of any kind...
    Team Captain "Team Gamerz"
    Yugioh RK LV1?
    WOW RK LV1
    PM LV1
    TO LV1
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  •  01-05-2009, 1:08 PM 1609461 in reply to 1033869

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    731819:
    I am curious to hear well thought-out opinions on the "no pre-ordering of your deck" rule that exists in our tournamen policy. We have a few options we're looking at on the PM 3 forum:1. Keep the rule as is and enforce it.
    2. Clarify the rule to allow some forms of presetting, but not others.
    3. Remove the rule and make an insufficient randomization penalty.

    P-33     Unsporting Conduct—Cheating (Penalty: Disqualification without Prize)

    Cheating is the highest display of unsporting conduct a player can exhibit during a tournament. Cheating includes, but is not limited to, intentionally misrepresenting the game state, rules, or policies; reporting inaccurate information to tournament officials; and bribery. A statement must be sent to the address given at the beginning of this document outlining the incident leading to this penalty.   Examples:

     * A player in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG pre-sets his deck while side decking and does not sufficiently randomize his deck before presenting it to his opponent.

    Lightsworns, Malicious/D-Draws, Grandmasters and other YGO cards are causing me to revisit this thread.  Over the last (almost) year we have had a lot of healthy development on shuffling decks, and the proper procedures that both the player and the opponent should be using to ensure a fair game.  (Of course I am still amazed at the player who top-4'd this weekend while frequently declining the cut.) 

    Back to the issue:  It is blatant cheating to preset the order of cards, then make minimal/insufficient effort to randomize the deck.  And the current P-33 (UC -Cheating) covers this perfectly.  "Grouping" Sangan with Crush is an effort to stack to achieve a quick win, and just because the player does not stand a 100% chance of drawing it on the opening hand does not mitigate the penalty. 

    As compared to flat-out stacking, today's much more common mis-play is the current "de-clumping" of cards like Malicious, Grandmaster, Wulf, etc. followed by only minimal shuffling/cutting, to increase the likelihood that the cards are well positioned in the deck.  Here, P-33 seems excessive and inaccurate when applied against "complacent player" actions. 

    To start with, De-clumping cards is "presetting" cards, and can (intentionally or unintentionally) allow a player unfair insight into the deck.  It is an intentional act to improve the deck's draws, and manipulate his deck to avoid drawing a dead hand.  If the player's actions stopped here, P-33 (UC - Cheating) would apply.   

    Now, if the player makes some effort at shuffling, but not enough to fully randomize the deck, where do we draw the line?  Placing a card on/near the top just means it will be cut into the middle.  The result of the "casual" play is the player potentially having knowledge of his deck, and/or potentially giving him an unfair draw.  He certainly will not open with a hand of 3 Malicious.

    I see great value in a "Insufficient randomization" penalty at Premiere events.  I'd recommend defining the Penalty as a Match Loss, because, at premiere play, we should be holding the player accountable to the highest standards.  But I also believe that this is one that the Head Judge should be allowed significant latitude in reducing depending on the evidence available.  It should even include a caveate to allow it to be waived for our youngest players at locals, and maybe reduced to a Warning at Dragon Duel level events.  [The analysis of the actual shuffling techniques would be subjective and will be left to the Head Judge's call. ]  This penalty would be serve the purpose of increasing awareness, at the same time it would support player development and not create a "cheater" stigma for what could have been an honest mistake. 

    Enjoying the game

     

  •  01-05-2009, 3:30 PM 1609702 in reply to 1609461

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    1468858:
    I see great value in a "Insufficient randomization" penalty at Premiere events.  I'd recommend defining the Penalty as a Match Loss, because, at premiere play, we should be holding the player accountable to the highest standards.  But I also believe that this is one that the Head Judge should be allowed significant latitude in reducing depending on the evidence available.  It should even include a caveate to allow it to be waived for our youngest players at locals, and maybe reduced to a Warning at Dragon Duel level events.  [The analysis of the actual shuffling techniques would be subjective and will be left to the Head Judge's call. ]  This penalty would be serve the purpose of increasing awareness, at the same time it would support player development and not create a "cheater" stigma for what could have been an honest mistake. 

    Interesting thought pattern there D1, it appears to me (and please correct me if I've misunderstood your thought pattern or incorrectly percieved it) that you're looking at failure to sufficiantly randomize (unintentionally) along the lines of Marked Cards-Major (Match Loss) with a similar reasoning of both penalties in that the potential for cheating is extremely high and therefore might / should carry a harsh penalty.

    If that's your train of thought I think I could buy into that.

  •  01-06-2009, 9:59 AM 1610412 in reply to 1609702

    • 1733559 is not online. Last active: 05-12-2009, 3:30 PM krishnad
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    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    I just wanted to thank D1Case for bringing this topic back up, and to my attention to the first time. After reading through the first page, I've looked back at previous games I've had, where I realized that the possibility of my opponent cheating with stacked cards was very possible, considering the ammount of times god hands and combos have been pulled on me, to include Exodia drawn on the first turn due to my poor shuffling of the opponent's deck. In fact, the only 1 time I can really remember my opponent being truely disapointed after was one where I did a very nice job of shuffling their deck because I was talking with them as I did it. They had to concede because their deck fell apart on them right away.

     

    I feel that I'll take the advice and try to shuffle my opponents deck at least seven times, or maybe even a pile shuffle and 3 normal shuffles.

    Is it alright to do the pile shuffle on an opponent's deck in between duels in a single match?


    YGO RK 1, PM 1, &TO 1 (yay!)
    Anti-Meta Angelic Sacrifice deck
    NC Dueling Forum that I put together. Check it out.
  •  01-06-2009, 10:48 AM 1610455 in reply to 1610412

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    Absolutely you can pile shuffle your opponent's deck. Just learn to do so quickly so as not to delay the match.
  •  01-07-2009, 6:47 AM 1611189 in reply to 1610412

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    In fact, I always pile shuffle (usually in between "regular" shuffles). This allows me to count his cards and look for marks. 5 stacks will quickly tell me if he side-decked correctly. When I start a match, I begin by "how many cards in your deck?", while I shuffle. After he tells me, I move to pile, looking at his card backs for marks. Easy math tells me if he has the right number, then a few more shuffles and we're good to go. Do that every game, whether the opponent sides or not, and you have a much easier chance of catching at least two forms of cheating. But don't forget to also keep on eye on your own deck.......
    I want to fix the game state.
    I must fix the game state!

    Please! Please! Let me fix the Game State!!!
  •  07-26-2009, 4:11 PM 1802987 in reply to 1611189

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    Did this issue get resolved?

    In my opinion, the only way for this to be perfectly resolved for the purposes of "judgement" is that WoW publishes a "standard tournament shuffle procedure"; which gives step by step instructions on how to shuffle (complete with diagrams). Otherwise, players can choose how they shuffle, and therein lies the entire problem.
  •  07-26-2009, 6:36 PM 1803066 in reply to 1802987

    Re: Pre-ordering your deck and shuffling

    The next version of the Penalty Guide should codify Upper Deck's policy on this. Hopefully, it should be out soon.
    Erik Mock
    UD Judge Coordinator
    WoW TCG Level 3
    Player Management Level 4
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