Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

1711588:

I'll wait for alex's opinion.

My stance as a judge remains the same. Both players can note it down if they so choose, so there should be no problem. Its not mandatory at all. Of course if neither player took a note, who should we favour in this discussion if it arises, and can we fault either or both for not taking notes (which would make it obvious which penalties apply) ? As a player it would be kind of cool if we could turn them sideways however :p I've been having a good deal of succes with a big City deck recently.Siding form RFG/SIM to s/t hate really wrecks most decks.

It's true that people can now take notes as they choose, but most people use calculators right now. I still prefer a pad and paper since you can see any mistakes that were made and correct them easily. But even if we can take notes and 2 players choose to, that's going to slow the game. At a shonen there are hundreds of players and if games are slowed it will leave alot of tables waiting for a judge at the end of the round.

Different scenarios:

1. Players use calculators and choose not to take notes, finish in time and rounds move swiftly. Gameplay suffers from players doing things against rules though.

2. Players take notes and card events are recorded. Gameplay is kept within the rules and players don't make as many mistakes, but rounds go over time limit and not enough judges are there to keep up with the matches doing 4 turns.

3. Players are allowed to use visual aids for effects(such as turning chaos sorcerer sideways in graveyard if it was not properly summoned), note-taking is minimal and calculators are used primarily for players. Rounds move quickly and rule mistakes are minimal since visual aids are used.

None of these scenarios might be correct, but Shonen Jump Orlando is on saturday and could be a good indication of how players take notes.

1071932:

None of these scenarios might be correct, but Shonen Jump Orlando is on saturday and could be a good indication of how players take notes.

That is very true.  It almost makes me sad that I'll be Judging the WoW event next door instead and won't be Judging or near the SJC.  I'd love to see first-hand how players adjust to being able to take notes.

Though I am quite curious as to how you came to your assertion that note-taking is going to absolutely cause the game to slow down to the point of going over time every time, and that this will occur for several Matches.  What basis do you have for this assumption?

Other UDE games, such as the WoW TCG, have allowed note-taking from the get-go.  And while WoW may not be nearly as complex as Yugioh, players are in no big rush to write down everything possible, and what notes are taken (usually the contents of an opponent's hand when it is revealed) do not affect the game to any great degree.

Likewise, I cannot imagine making notes such as "Treeborn Frog", "Reckless Greed - no draw 1 2" (then cross out as they skip Draw Phases), "Chaos Sorcerer - no SS", "Wildheart - destroyed in battle", etc. would delay any Match to the point where it lasting until time is called in the round could be blamed on taking notes.  I wrote out all that simply because of how easy it is to type... players will likely use even more shortcuts when writing out the notes.

As for an argument against visual aids, I agree with BelgianBlue.  If we begin allowing players to use visual aids for anything under the sun, then play becomes sloppy and determining what was turned sideways for what becomes a hassle and a rulings nightmare... I believe the judge calls and determining who is right about this card being turned sideways for that would delay Matches much more than simple note-taking.

Take the example of "Skyscraper 2 - Hero City" and a monster that cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard, for example.  Let's suppose we're allowing the visual aids of turning cards sideways in the Graveyard.  We have a player with "...Hero City" in play, a few "Elemental Hero" cards turned sideways in the Graveyard.  Amongst those is an "Elemental Hero Aqua Neos" that was sent directly from the Fusion Deck to the Graveyard (thus it is being turned sideways to note it cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard).  Several turns down the road, the player notes "...Aqua Neos" being sideways and attempts to bring it back with "...Hero City".  We now have a situation where the opponent will either argue against this and a Judge must be called to solve the disagreement, or the opponent does not realize the mistake and the integrity of the game is compromised.

Now obviously the above example is a bit unlikely to occur, and would not be incredibly common.  But the point is that situations like this could occur from the use of visual aids, which would be avoided by notes instead.

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Player Management: Level 2
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1071932:

2. Players take notes and card events are recorded. Gameplay is kept within the rules and players don't make as many mistakes, but rounds go over time limit and not enough judges are there to keep up with the matches doing 4 turns.

It has already been stated that any note taking must not slow the game down significantly. If your scenario 2 occurs, then the judges should be assigning more slow play penalties to prevent that from happening. As stated above, other games have allowed notes and it has not affected the speed of the game to any significant degree.

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WoW RK2
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I expect 90% of note taking to be done in a timely fashion and thus not slow the game much, if any, at all.  About 5% of games might actualy experience an increase in speed due to note taking.  The 5% remaining will have their games slown down by note taking, judges will work hard to train these players into speeding up and in some cases that will help.  Sadly some players are just slow, maybe they will experience penalties and maybe they will go 'under the radar.'  The end result won't be a very large one on the pace of the tournament.  Note taking should be viewed as a positive change and in some situations it will really help out the judges to fix complex game states.


As has been stated in the past, "Treeborn Frog" should not be turned sideways.  Same goes for an "Elemental Hero" or a "Chaos Sorcerer."  Game state situations such as those should be remembered by both players, note taking will be a great aid in preventing any disputes or illegal plays.

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Owner of Plus One Cards

That's my sentiment as well. On top of that, at an event as big as an SJC, isn't there always one slow player or someone with a stall deck that makes the round go to time anyway ? So like Bryan says, its not going to impact the speed of the tournament much.

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1431021:

Though I am quite curious as to how you came to your assertion that note-taking is going to absolutely cause the game to slow down to the point of going over time every time, and that this will occur for several Matches.  What basis do you have for this assumption?

Likewise, I cannot imagine making notes such as "Treeborn Frog", "Reckless Greed - no draw 1 2" (then cross out as they skip Draw Phases), "Chaos Sorcerer - no SS", "Wildheart - destroyed in battle", etc. would delay any Match to the point where it lasting until time is called in the round could be blamed on taking notes.  I wrote out all that simply because of how easy it is to type... players will likely use even more shortcuts when writing out the notes.

I probably should have listed a 4th scenario similar to Bryan's....but there are just too many slow players out there. Your notes are simple and appropriate, but there are exceptions to everything and some people are very thorough with the game. Others are not very good at using shortcuts and may want to write everything down. This is definetly cause for slow play  but if 2 players are both being slow, then neither is going to accuse the other of slow play. Most rounds end with a small percentage of tables over time and the judges deal with them quickly(10 minutes or less). But with note-taking just now being allowed for anything, some are going to think they need to write everything down. This is speculation and the proof will be seen at the SJC in Orlando this weekend. Maybe there will be something interesting at the FX show this weekend too.

"Take the example of "Skyscraper 2 - Hero City" and a monster that cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard, for example.  Let's suppose we're allowing the visual aids of turning cards sideways in the Graveyard.  We have a player with "...Hero City" in play, a few "Elemental Hero" cards turned sideways in the Graveyard.  Amongst those is an "Elemental Hero Aqua Neos" that was sent directly from the Fusion Deck to the Graveyard (thus it is being turned sideways to note it cannot be Special Summoned from the Graveyard).  Several turns down the road, the player notes "...Aqua Neos" being sideways and attempts to bring it back with "...Hero City".  We now have a situation where the opponent will either argue against this and a Judge must be called to solve the disagreement, or the opponent does not realize the mistake and the integrity of the game is compromised. "

It is a good example but it is rare like you said. What if the same situation occured and neither player had notes and didn't turn their cards sideways though?

I think what you're going to find is that most judges will explain the new policy at the beginning of the next premier tournament, then, a few players will take their sweet time and recieve warnings, then the judge will explain it again.....and people will understand. I don't see this as being an on going issue.

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM L3
TO L1
Specialist L1

about the frog thing i think as i judge i wouldnt allow it. Even though people dont play it if someone used question and treeborn frog was the bottom card you would have a unfair advanage.Not only that, like it was said before you should be able to remember to play your optional effects from the graveyard. If i was playing in a event i wouldnt want a judge to say he could have it on it's side. Not because i'm dishonest it's jsut because thinking is part of the game.

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1431021:

1071932:

None of these scenarios might be correct, but Shonen Jump Orlando is on saturday and could be a good indication of how players take notes.

That is very true.  It almost makes me sad that I'll be Judging the WoW event next door instead and won't be Judging or near the SJC.  I'd love to see first-hand how players adjust to being able to take notes.

So after seeing shonen I got to see how players took notes...no one did. XD

I personally didn't play, hear about, or see 1 person using notes. Each round lasted about 60-90 minutes with the early rounds lasting the longest.

You know... come to think of it, I never saw anyone taking notes either.  Of course I only stepped in at the SJC every once in a while when Alex or Jeff had nothing better for me to do, but nada... that just now hit me.  Same at the Regionals on Sunday.  Intriguing.  Guess when you're used to playing a game for years and not allowed to do something, when you finally can do it, it's just too easy to stick to your old habit and not bother with it.

'Course, I felt real sorry for the guy who was making the announcement of all the policy changes before the tournament began.  I think it took him at least 3 minutes to get through them all XD

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Look at it this way....

How many players fill out their deck lists before the morning of the tournament? They all realize that writing that deck list can very easily cost them a game in an SJC or nationals, yet, they don't take the care to write that with any care or thought.

What makes you think that a good portion of the players then will take the time to take notes?

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
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I know I am late in discovering this thread but now when players ask why I allow players to put a die on their deck to remind themselves about the lingering effect of Reckless Greed.....

rather than saying "I asked one of the Head Judges at Nationals and they said it was OK"

....I can now say much more intelligently "Because Reckless Greed is a mandatory effect, it is both players' responsibility to enforce its effect; visual reminders for mandatory effects are OK".

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Formerly ZombieMasterBlud
Denver Area Judge
Stonebridge Games Regular

YuGiOh Rules Knowledge: LV 2
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Again I'm late in discovering this thread but I like it.

I completely agree with what has been said, visual aids for manditory, written aids for optional etc, but I would like to put forward an alternative (even though the policy is stated)

Written Aids, for me atleast, is a visual aid. It's written down, everyone can see it. This is besides the point.

In terms of delivering these practices, and having consistancy wouldn't it be 'safer' to say that all manditory and optional effects can be written down, and thats it. This removes the need for in game counters (beads, dice, etc etc).

From what I gather, the reason behind introducing written aids was to aid those with less then normal memory. Being pendantic, wouldn't this extend to the 'visual aids', "Why is the dice on my deck, why do I have 6 counters on Wave-Motion Cannon?"

In terms of rulings also, it is MUCH clearer for Judges and playes alike to have written down "Final Countdown at 9" or "Swords of Revealing Light 2 Battle Phases". It gives meaning behind the visual aids.

Also lets not forget the players, especially players who haven't played that long. Many a time in a tournament players have failed to noticed a Manditory effect, and didn't even know if it was. It would allow people to play without fear of "hmmmm, is this a manditory effect and would I be given a penalty for forgetting it or using a dice to represent it?" Of course you can just ask the judge in this case, but rarely do new players actually do this (from my experiance).

To concise my point, if you allowed only written aids instead of Visual aids, wouldn't this remove alot of this debate and discussion, and allow easier communication of this to player.

Just something to throw out there, allowing written aids to track optional effects would help people with poor memories, however it would seem bias to people with dyslexia, such as myself.

Just a couple of thoughts.

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U.K. Judge
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The problem with eliminating counters and replacing them with notes is taking notes takes longer than putting a counter on a card or taking a counter off the card. If someone is playing a deck with several cards that all use counters in one way or another, it will significantly slow down their play especially if they are playing with cards that add or move counters from one card to another (ie spell counters).

In my experience the card that the counters are on are usually enough to help players know what the counter is for.

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Okay that was me being pendantic, but my point still stands.

Also as per the requisit of writing notes, they shouldn't interrupt the flow of gameplay anyway. This also doesn't elimiante the idea that I could place a counter on the card and write down the card, all legal with a manditory effect - Not that this would ever happen mind.

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U.K. Judge
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