Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

@Simon. hmmm, that could indeed work in some cases. I'll see how easy it is to implement in the future. Since zones are rarely marked on most mats and its a rare occurance to see all zones filled, it could work in some instances. However, At the last pharaoh tour stop I played against a crystal beast deck and I was playing samurai I swarmed and he created a wall of special summons. With 5 monstercards turned sideways, room was so limited he had to actually place the 5th monster above the rest. It was amicable and I was paying close attention so it didn't matter, but these situations happen at major events like this, can be extremely confusing and could get the crystal beast player in trouble against the horde of rule sharks.. Surely you can see there is really no room for an additional zone when we can't even properly accomodate all existing zones.

The solution is indeed bigger tables. And I would really like to see UDE instate an official minimum table size, at the very least for premier events, and even large sanctioned non-premier events.

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284102:

John
If someone is playing question then they would not be fanning or turning any card sideways in their graveyard. Since it affects only their own graveyard I don't think that is a very strong argument. I thought that back when sinister serpent was debated, Kevin had said that turning side ways was fine as long as the order didn't change. However, I could be remembering it backwards.

I would love to hear if UDE has a preference on the current way to handle this or if one of those issues left for the head judge to decide.

sorry for bringing up an old post but I don't think I have a clear answer yet.

And I have too seen the post by Kevin Tewart on the old judge boards there he said it was ok to put treeborn frog/sinister serpent sideways in the graveyard.

I would like an official ruling from UDE.

EDIT: I missed that were more than one page on this thread (please don't laugh). never mind my post.

731819:

Here is the official answer to the treeborn frog question.

Remembering optional trigger effects is part of skill testing within the game. Players may not use visual aids to remind them.

Remembering mandatory trigger effects (such as Sacred phoenix) is the responsibility of both players, so players are allowed to use visual aids (such as turning the card sideways) and even notes to remind them of its effect.

 

As a bonus, here's the official answer to the removed from play zone question.

Please don't mix the removed from play zone with the graveyard zone. It's just too easy to mess up the game by having those cards in the same pile. Please start a new pile for the removed from play zone. I realize that occasionally there is very little space for players to operate in. In those cases, if players truly can't figure out a effective space to place their removed from play pile, then they should call for a judge to help them.

this is our official answer from ude to the tree born frog question hope that clears things up for you

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Demo Team : Level 1
Player Management: Level 1
Rules Knowledge - World of Warcraft: Level 1
Rules Knowledge - Yu-gi-oh!: Level 1
Tournament Organizer: Level 1

yea I missed that. sorry.

1711588:

@Simon. hmmm, that could indeed work in some cases. ...

The solution is indeed bigger tables. And I would really like to see UDE instate an official minimum table size, at the very least for premier events, and even large sanctioned non-premier events.

 

I am not sure minimum table size would fix much The only dimension that would make the differance is the width of the table, allowing room below the S/T trap zones for RFP pile.   players can still be squeezed in side by side so that mats overlap and elbows bump.

What would be a better solution would be to define a minimum dimension for each player to occupy i.e. 17"x30".  That could then be used to compute needed table length or number of players per table.  This are should accomdate a standard mat, leaving 3" on either side and 6" between opponents mats - room for a dice/token box, score pad/calculator, RFP and side deck to be placed on the table in an orderly manner.

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YGO Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 1
TO lvl 1
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That which does not kill me, just royally pisses me off!

1425175:

I am not sure minimum table size would fix much The only dimension that would make the differance is the width of the table, allowing room below the S/T trap zones for RFP pile.   players can still be squeezed in side by side so that mats overlap and elbows bump.

What would be a better solution would be to define a minimum dimension for each player to occupy i.e. 17"x30".  That could then be used to compute needed table length or number of players per table.  This are should accomdate a standard mat, leaving 3" on either side and 6" between opponents mats - room for a dice/token box, score pad/calculator, RFP and side deck to be placed on the table in an orderly manner.

That's sort of what I meant :p Guess I didn't word it very well. But I agree with these recommendations entirely. I think its sort of a minimum courtesy from the TO towards the players as well. After all we go to great lengths to be prepared and avoid dispute. We bring custom tokens, dice, coins, counters, deckboxes to keep cards orderly, calculator, pen, notepad and gamemat. What good is all that if you either can't use it, or it creates more clutter and confusion due to lack of space ? If not as a rule, then at least as a strong recommendation, this should be included in the responsibilities for the TO.

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855505:

731819:

Here is the official answer to the treeborn frog question.

Remembering optional trigger effects is part of skill testing within the game. Players may not use visual aids to remind them.

Remembering mandatory trigger effects (such as Sacred phoenix) is the responsibility of both players, so players are allowed to use visual aids (such as turning the card sideways) and even notes to remind them of its effect.

 

As a bonus, here's the official answer to the removed from play zone question.

Please don't mix the removed from play zone with the graveyard zone. It's just too easy to mess up the game by having those cards in the same pile. Please start a new pile for the removed from play zone. I realize that occasionally there is very little space for players to operate in. In those cases, if players truly can't figure out a effective space to place their removed from play pile, then they should call for a judge to help them.

this is our official answer from ude to the tree born frog question hope that clears things up for you

According to the Policy update players are allowed to take notes of any kind.

Would that also mean that a player is now allowed to place his "Treeborn Frog" sideways in the Graveyard?

I have seen players at my tournaments who placed spell cards sideways for the effekt of "Diamond Dude" as well. I was arguing that they couldn´t do that. The player then just put a dice on the graveyard.

I´m a little confued about handling this situation, can someone please clear this up for me.

Actually according to the rules update this implies that they are allowed to "note" it. So he could write "treeborn" on a piece of paper. But as per the previous reply in this regard, he would not be allowed to use visual aids like placing it sidewards or putting a dice on his graveyard.

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Writing notes and using visual aids (turning card sideways, dropping dice on it) to remind players of optional triggers are two different things. This still applies. Now, however, you are able to write frog on your score pad, if you think that that would help you to remember the optional trigger. 

Notice that it's acceptable to use visual aids to remember mandatory triggers.

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Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck

What about cards such as Chaos Sorcerer? If it was discarded or sent to the graveyard before being special summoned or had it's summon negated, should it be turned sideways as a reminder that it cannot be summoned?

1071932:

What about cards such as Chaos Sorcerer? If it was discarded or sent to the graveyard before being special summoned or had it's summon negated, should it be turned sideways as a reminder that it cannot be summoned?

Let me pose the question to you as a judge. Assume that a player asked you this. How would you rule this and why?

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Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck

731819:

1071932:

What about cards such as Chaos Sorcerer? If it was discarded or sent to the graveyard before being special summoned or had it's summon negated, should it be turned sideways as a reminder that it cannot be summoned?

Let me pose the question to you as a judge. Assume that a player asked you this. How would you rule this and why?

 

I would say that a player should be allowed to turn cards such as Chaos Sorcerer sideways as a reminder.

The card cannot be summoned from the graveyard and would be against the rules if they did. It would need to be remembered and should follow the same rules as a mandatory trigger effect.

In light of the recent changes to the policy document, the correct answer was that if he really, really lacked the capacity to remember something so simple he could actually write it down to remind himself. Its not a mandatory effect, as was discussed previously in this thread, its a concious effort to revive a monster that cannot be revived.

If you can turn just any card sideways as a reminder of its interaction with other cards, pretty soon you'll have a host of unrelated cards turned sideways and not know which one is turned for what reason.

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1071932:

I would say that a player should be allowed to turn cards such as Chaos Sorcerer sideways as a reminder.

The card cannot be summoned from the graveyard and would be against the rules if they did. It would need to be remembered and should follow the same rules as a mandatory trigger effect.

For the exact same reason, I think it should be allowed to turn an E-HERO sideways if it was destroyed by battle. Imagine a situation where a player wants to summon that Hero using Skyscaper 2 but isn't sure whether it was destroyed by battle. He will most certainly just assume it was and summon it. That would have a great impact on the game and on the legality of the current game situation. Thus, this should be handled like mandatory trigger effects. (It is a condition, which is usually mandatory!)

I'll wait for alex's opinion.

My stance as a judge remains the same. Both players can note it down if they so choose, so there should be no problem. Its not mandatory at all. Of course if neither player took a note, who should we favour in this discussion if it arises, and can we fault either or both for not taking notes (which would make it obvious which penalties apply) ? As a player it would be kind of cool if we could turn them sideways however :p I've been having a good deal of succes with a big City deck recently.Siding form RFG/SIM to s/t hate really wrecks most decks.

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