Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

This question is being discussed both on the YGO 3 forums and internally at UDE.

No official answer, just yet.

 

Alex

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Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck

284102:

John
If someone is playing question then they would not be fanning or turning any card sideways in their graveyard. Since it affects only their own graveyard I don't think that is a very strong argument. I thought that back when sinister serpent was debated, Kevin had said that turning side ways was fine as long as the order didn't change. However, I could be remembering it backwards.

<laffin> I didn't say it was a STRONG arguement! As a matter of fact I didn't even say it was a good point! Quite honestly I personally have many other personal views I feel are much better arguments for keeping the graveyard neat....and I have a few against it as well. It's certainly a debateable topic with other options that could be implemented. To me the real question is, "How would the game benefit from any ruling or policy made regarding this topic?"

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM L3
TO L1
Specialist L1

966558:

The RFP Zone is public knowledge.

The RFP Zone is completely separate from your Graveyard.

The cards in your RFP Zone should not be 'mixed' into your Graveyard for any reason at all....ever.
Players should not be placing their RFP cards upside down under their Graveyard, nor should they be turning them sideways in the Graveyard.

The RFP cards need to be face-up in a single pile.  Normally this pile is placed directly above the Graveyard.  If you play with a modified field setup, then you need to clearly indicate to your opponent where your RFP pile will be located.

I think the emphasis on "should not" here explains it perfectly. It shouldn't. But if its an absolute, then UDE needs to instate rules about the minimum table size or include an RFP zone on playmats. I have no issues about placing the RFP zone anywhere if both players agree in the presence of a judge, and as long as it stays public knowledge.

In an ideal world I agree. In the real world, 4 players at a table where there is barely enough room to put 4 playmats without them partially overlapping and partially hanging off the table don't have room to do that. I saw it at the Pharaoh tour stop last weekend, which is a pretty big event. So this isn't a local only issue. TO's try to save money by cutting back on player comfort, even PTO's.

As long as everyone is an agreement prior to the game about what happens, there is no conflict, and no reason why players can't make do with the means at their disposal.

366390:

<laffin> I didn't say it was a STRONG arguement! As a matter of fact I didn't even say it was a good point! Quite honestly I personally have many other personal views I feel are much better arguments for keeping the graveyard neat....and I have a few against it as well. It's certainly a debateable topic with other options that could be implemented. To me the real question is, "How would the game benefit from any ruling or policy made regarding this topic?"

The aim of having rules is to avoid conflict. If two conditions are present , namely :

A.Conflict can be avoided anyway
B.There is no logical means to impliment the rule

Then there is no problem with a deviation. As Alex says, there is no official stance yet. I hope they give it a lot of thought, and if UDE is absolute on their decision that this rule must be enforced at all times, then I feel they are obligated to institute a minimum table size that allows it. Which I am all for by the way. I think its inhumane when playing you have no room to put calculator and notepad, much less an RFP zone or your deckbox, dice, tokens and counters. I personally would never subject my player base to that, but then I don't have such a large player base yet :p

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When Treeborn came out - the players started off placing the card sideways in the GY to remind them of it - however after a while me&the rest of the local judges agreed to stop players doing this as it up to them & the players to keep card effects in mind & if one player who did place the card sideways & his oppenent didnt - that player would have a slight advantage imo

so im against allowing players to turn cards sideways in their GY

Both players would have the option to turn it sideways so there no advantage given to one player over an other. This is the same as one player chosing to track the cards that dealt the damage and one that doesn't. The player keeping track of what has dealt damage has a slight advantage in that he can check and see what has been played. The player deciding not to write that down has to rely on memory. However, those are some of the only notes allowed in YGO. So UDE must not feel that is an 'unfair' advantage. The reason it is not unfair is because both players have the option to do the same thing.

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WoW RK2
VS RK2
YGO RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

The only card that will make this eally unfair is question right and the player that using it is the one whom does not want the card to be known if its the turnsideways card. So really the only thing is remembering the trigger right. So if they both have the option. I still think its bit harsh to say no you cant. Its still surpose to be as fun and fair as we can make it. Thats my thoughts.

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World of Warcraft Rules&Knowledge Lv2
Yugioh Rules&Knowledge Lv1
Player Management Lv2
The force is with you!!

      It seems to me that remembering that you have a Treeborn Frog to use or miss is part of the game. It's not like a manditory effect that both players are required to remember. There is actually an advantage to placing it sideways as a reminder...the advantage being, that it IS a reminder. There are already many things in the game that we are required to remember without aids. For instance, which fusion Monsters did you use to fuse together that Monster, for the purposes of De-Fusion? Have you paid your upkeep for those Archfiends this Stanby Phase? How many turns has Swords been on the field? How many were Tributed for Behemoth? What's Great Maju's ATK?

     Now some of these are readily solved with "counters" or a die, or scribbling an attack on a piece of paper. So what's the problem? You have an effect you want to remember? Set a coin down. Heads the effect is available, tails you've used it. You don't need to mess with your Graveyard to do it. Have you used Dasher's effect? What doe sthe coin say? But turning cards sideways--Can you immagine the disarray of the E-Hero/D-Hero player who is turning his GY sideways to remember which Tenacious/Dasher/Diamond Dude effects were used, as well as which E-Heroes have been destroyed in Battle for the effect of SkyScraper 2?  What a mess. There must be a better way.

     As for the RFP cards and the Graveyard... The RFP zone should be Face-up above or below where you place your Side Deck (which is also supposed to be out Face-down), but if there is no room for either of those, I would rather (if you must place it somewhere on the board provided), that you place the RFP Face-up sideways in your Field Spell Zone (on the mats), rather than with your Graveyard. Under the Graveyard, sideways or up-side down, should not be allowed.

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I want to fix the game state.
I must fix the game state!

Please! Please! Let me fix the Game State!!!

Here is the official answer to the treeborn frog question.

Remembering optional trigger effects is part of skill testing within the game. Players may not use visual aids to remind them.

Remembering mandatory trigger effects (such as Sacred phoenix) is the responsibility of both players, so players are allowed to use visual aids (such as turning the card sideways) and even notes to remind them of its effect.

 

As a bonus, here's the official answer to the removed from play zone question.

Please don't mix the removed from play zone with the graveyard zone. It's just too easy to mess up the game by having those cards in the same pile. Please start a new pile for the removed from play zone. I realize that occasionally there is very little space for players to operate in. In those cases, if players truly can't figure out a effective space to place their removed from play pile, then they should call for a judge to help them.

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Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck

So its still the judges call if there isn't enough space to work with ? Thanks for the answers Alex.

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I believe you misinterpreted the answer.  More directly:

Do NOT keep the Removed from Play and Graveyard in the same pile.  These piles are serperate from each other and keeping the Removed from Play pile with the Graveyard can cause confusion and mistakes.

In the event players are not able to figure out where to put their Remove from Play pile and Graveyard due to spacing they should call for a judge.  That judge will then help them to place the Removed from Play and Graveyard into two seperate piles. 

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Owner of Plus One Cards

If I'm misreading, how would you resolve this issue : Table is only big enough to fit the game mats on them. In fact they are partially overlapping and partially hanging off the table to be more correct. The player in question is playing Clock Tower Prison in his deck and has a fusion deck. Where would you place the RFP pile ? The player's lap ?

In that situation I really fail to see what other solutions there are beside sideways in the grave or upside down under the grave. Under the playmat or on the players lap would make the innaccesible to player and opponent.

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My suggestion would be to either not play with Game Mats, or get bigger tables...

If the players are using the 'standard' setup for their Deck and Graveyard, then one solution would be to have them turn their Deck and Graveyard sideways, which 'should' free up enough space to also have an RFP pile sideways above the Graveyard (where it's suppsed to be anyways...lol).

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Simon Key

Yugioh! TCG Rules Knowledge Level 3
WoW TCG Rules Knowledge Level 2
WoW Minis Rules Knowledge Level 1
Player Management Level 3
Tournament Organizer Level 1

There is a solution to this.

Turn your deck and graveyard sideways and you create an open space for the RFP zone.

Apparently Skey we had the same idea.

There is also the area behind the Spell and Trap zone of a standard playmat, directly in front of the players.  It's usually 26 inches by 5 incheas, certainly large enough to hold a Removed from Play pile behind the deck, which is a great spot. 

But, as Simon Key mentioned, the real solution would be in to have adequete table space for each player.  Now I've worked plenty of large events and have played in full houses before.  We once had a Regional on April 4th 2006 in Indianapolis in which we had seating for 152 players but had 256 players sign up, so I understand that things can get cramped fast.  But not enough room for my RFP pile seems bogus even under the most cramped conditions.  If there is enough room to play, then there is enough room for a RFP pile.  If there isn't enough room to play, then the issue of not enough room to play is what needs to be directly addressed.

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Owner of Plus One Cards