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Ahh I understand it a bit more with your wording on the engenering of the penalties thanks for the help and example Jason. Im am  more of an agreement now with you all about the cheating part cause of his intent to take advantage. Sorry didnt want to start an agrument just trying to understand the mechanics applying cheating versus intent or not.

This is not clearly spelled out in the penalty polices at the this time and should imo be used as an example so we clearly understand the severity of improper notes. All unsportsman penalties are for intentional errors and that was my starting point of thinking. Yes it was intentional and was trying to decide did he intentionaly misrepresent the game state, rules, or trying to get the edge. Which is cheating. I first thought that hey looking at your sidedeck during the game is against policies and I remember reading somewhere http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/COMMUNITY/forums/2/899640/ShowThread.aspx here that yes its intentional but did he so intentionally do it to cheat the system. That was said to be a minor violation but intentional. You can do this to get a head start on what to side deck in next match just as easy as looking a note during a match.

This is different cause it was brought from the outside and was preset so yes it can be ruled that he cheated cause he preset the crime and did not commit it on the fly.

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Jeremy has a valid point, and as Judges we need to assess the intent and the impact.  Though I think that his position may be just a little too forgiving.  If a player builds a deck with Chaos Sorceror, and plays several matches before the card is played.  When discovered this is still against policy, (Deck Error - Illegal Deck) .  Yet, he will still likely receive a game loss, illegal deck, and be allowed to correct his deck before continuing.  So in this scenario, there is not one right answer, but rather a spread depending on the rest of the circumstances.

If the notes are discovered in the first game of Round one, that could easily be a warning and educate the player. 

If the notes are discovered in the play of a first game, all other rounds, then I favor (Procedural Error - Major) game loss; as the palyer was apperently using the notes to help anticipate his opponent's moves.

If, however, the player used the notes to develop a side deck for game 2 in any round, I think this would merit a match loss  (Procedural Error - Severe) as the player would have used the outside assistance to gain an advantage) in the current matchup.

If, as Jeremy says, he was hiding the notes, lying about their content, etc., than this would easily be a DQ without prize.

Over to those who know better.

 

1195410:

This actually came up during a recent SJC. A player had a list of sidedeck substitutions to make against diffeent matchups. This is clear cut UC-Cheating. There is no educate with a warning when they are purposefully doing something against the rules. Especially at such a high level event as Continentals. This is listed in the penalty guidelines as cheating. Rememberng what to sidedeck is part of the game. The notes gives him an unfair advantage over other people who are following the policies.

Even if he player was under the impression that it was allowed (which happened at the SJC, and he could prove he was under that impression) it's still UC-cheating. 

This is good for reference, as higher standards of play must be enforced at higher levels of competition, however, I am missing where it is so clear cut.  From the Penalties appendix,

P-33    Unsporting Conduct—Cheating (Penalty: Disqualification without Prize)

 

Cheating is the highest display of unsporting conduct a player can exhibit during a tournament. Cheating includes, but is not limited to, intentionally misrepresenting the game state, rules, or policies; reporting inaccurate information to tournament officials; and bribery. A statement must be sent to the address given at the beginning of this document outlining the incident leading to this penalty.

 Examples:

 ·         A player offers booster packs to her opponent in exchange for conceding the final round.

 ·         A player purposely draws an extra card and attempts to conceal it.

 ·         A player intentionally reports to a tournament official that he won a round after losing the round.

 ·         In a World of Warcraft TCG game, a player intentionally marks four of her key ability cards so that she can predict when they will be drawn.

 ·         A player lies to tournament officials.

 ·         A player who won the first game of the match purposely plays slowly in order to stall for time and wait for the round to end.

 ·         A player in the World of Warcraft TCG deliberately switches a face-down resource with a card in her hand.

·         A player in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG pre-sets his deck while side decking and does not sufficiently randomize his deck before presenting it to his opponent.

 

 

 

893329:

Ahh I understand it a bit more with your wording on the engenering of the penalties thanks for the help and example Jason. Im am  more of an agreement now with you all about the cheating part cause of his intent to take advantage. Sorry didnt want to start an agrument just trying to understand the mechanics applying cheating versus intent or not.

This is not clearly spelled out in the penalty polices at the this time and should imo be used as an example so we clearly understand the severity of improper notes. All unsportsman penalties are for intentional errors and that was my starting point of thinking. Yes it was intentional and was trying to decide did he intentionaly misrepresent the game state, rules, or trying to get the edge. Which is cheating. I first thought that hey looking at your sidedeck during the game is against policies and I remember reading somewhere http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/COMMUNITY/forums/2/899640/ShowThread.aspx here that yes its intentional but did he so intentionally do it to cheat the system. That was said to be a minor violation but intentional. You can do this to get a head start on what to side deck in next match just as easy as looking a note during a match.

This is different cause it was brought from the outside and was preset so yes it can be ruled that he cheated cause he preset the crime and did not commit it on the fly.

 

I could sense that you were not trying to argue with me you just had a different way of seeing it. I just forgot to add the few words "he was intentiaonally bringing the notes to the game" , sorry about that I will be more clear next time I want to push my point. I have to remember that I am the only one that knows what I am thinking .

EDIT: I agree with Dave as I looked in the Penalty Guidelines and there was nothing on outside assistance I was actually sort of shocked; that may have been another reason why Jeremy was thinking differently from us.

Thanks alot,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
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I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

generally, as posted by D1case above : cheating includes, but is not limited to, intentionally misrepresenting the game state, rules, or policies. bringing along and using a written-down sideboard strategy can't be unintentional per definition. so this should always result in a dq; the circumstances matter when filing the report, not when deducting the proper penalty.

@ jeremy : even if he had not brought the notes in before but taken them , say, during round 1 because he might fear to forget his strategies during a long event, it would mean a dq if he was using them in later rounds, since it became unallowed additional information by then, produced on the fly or not.

@ D1case : if it came to know that a player possessed these kind of notes but didn't try to use them so far, it would be better to interfere at that moment, educate and warn the player since it is part of our duty to prevent players from committing rules infractions they might not be aware of. but if he is using them already, he is obviously doing something intentionally that violates the policies. as it is part of a player's duties to know them, it won't matter if he was aware of the illegality. if he would be additionally lying, concealing or whatever duing the inquiry, this will add up to the reasons listed in the report, with various things each being reason enough for a dq.

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The Sheep think they're Wolves. But the Wolves know better ...

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If this was brought to my attention while I was HJ of the event, I would give this player an unsporting conduct minor - warning.  I would consider this a minor disruption to the event.  Yes the player has broken tournament policy but he did not :

1.  Intentionally stack his deck to draw these cards he was side-decking based on the information given.

2.  Lie to a tournament official based on the information given.

Tournament policy is broken every time a player sits down to a match and does not bring pen, paper or some method to track life points but we do not DQ them.  We usually retrieve paper and pen and inform them that this is a player's responsibility to provide these items and they need to do so for their next match.  As well as upholding the integerity of the event, we must also keep in mind good customer service.  Again this should be unsporting conduct minor - warning.

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Chris Goff
Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
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1406076:

generally, as posted by D1case above : cheating includes, but is not limited to, intentionally misrepresenting the game state, rules, or policies. bringing along and using a written-down sideboard strategy can't be unintentional per definition. so this should always result in a dq; the circumstances matter when filing the report, not when deducting the proper penalty.

@ jeremy : even if he had not brought the notes in before but taken them , say, during round 1 because he might fear to forget his strategies during a long event, it would mean a dq if he was using them in later rounds, since it became unallowed additional information by then, produced on the fly or not.

@ D1case : if it came to know that a player possessed these kind of notes but didn't try to use them so far, it would be better to interfere at that moment, educate and warn the player since it is part of our duty to prevent players from committing rules infractions they might not be aware of. but if he is using them already, he is obviously doing something intentionally that violates the policies. as it is part of a player's duties to know them, it won't matter if he was aware of the illegality. if he would be additionally lying, concealing or whatever duing the inquiry, this will add up to the reasons listed in the report, with various things each being reason enough for a dq.

I think you missed one of the two important words there.  From the description, we have no reason to believe that this player intentionally misrepresented the game state.  Without the intentional misrepresentation, I don't think cheating applies here.  The player certainly altered the match beyond any hope of fixing it, so a PE-Severe match loss is appropriate I think.

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Lvl 3 Yugioh Rules Knowledge
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Hmmmm, Robert you bring up a great point as always. Reading your post leads me to believe that a PE - Severe Match Loss would be a great "base" penalty for this infraction. But I do belive sometimes this infraction will fall under Unsporting conduct Severe - Cheating ( DQ W/O prize).

 

Thanks alot,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

Again I will say this should not be considered a DQ penalty.  The player intentionally wrote down his thoughts on what to side in against certain matchups.  The cheating part would come in if as I mentioned above he intentionally stacked his deck to draw these cards or tried to hide the notes or lie to a tournament official about the notes.  We can only speculate this did not happened since his opponent did not call for a judge to persue the situation.  Based on the info provided there is no grounds for a DQ.

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Chris Goff
Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM3
TO L1

How about we all wait and see what Alex Charsky has to say on the issue before deciding what the penalty should be? He's at PAX this weekend but I'll draw his attention to the topic, as he's working on some issues with policy.

Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to give a DQ for cheating in this instance. In my experience, people don't tend to cheat by openly displaying notes during a match.

Everyone should certainly feel free to continue to debate their reasoning but I'd caution anyone against stating their opinion as deliberate fact at this point in time. :)


Julia

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Julia Hedberg

Regular Jane
I have some certification levels, too.

1512777:

Again I will say this should not be considered a DQ penalty.  The player intentionally wrote down his thoughts on what to side in against certain matchups.  The cheating part would come in if as I mentioned above he intentionally stacked his deck to draw these cards or tried to hide the notes or lie to a tournament official about the notes.  We can only speculate this did not happened since his opponent did not call for a judge to persue the situation.  Based on the info provided there is no grounds for a DQ.

You are not allowed to use notes from previous matches in the current match...
Having notes from home / previous tournaments / etc. on what to Side Deck is considered Outside Assistance (IMHO)...

Therefore, it is of my honest opinion that he is:
1) Purposefully using outside notes.
2) Hid the notes until the need to use them
3) Is almost as bad a player as Bandit Keith.

In my eyes, I see no "grey area" for this infraction.  If a player comes with outside notes or the DS Card Catalog, and even glances at the Outside Notes or the Catalog, it is an UC-Cheating (DQ w/o Prize).

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okay, i'm waiting in suspense for alex's wise words :)

all who talk abut him possibly lying / hiding etc : that would clearly be covered by other infractions with penalties in their own right. the assumption in this situation is that he was openly using previous notes, and admitting to do so if possibly questioned afterwards.

@ robert : i didn't want to point out he was misrepresenting the gamestate but the policies instead and doing it intentionally. possibly not knowing that it was illegal won't save you from the consequences, as in real life.

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The Sheep think they're Wolves. But the Wolves know better ...

Lvl 2 WoW Rules Knowledge
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842510:

In my eyes, I see no "grey area" for this infraction.  If a player comes with outside notes or the DS Card Catalog, and even glances at the Outside Notes or the Catalog, it is an UC-Cheating (DQ w/o Prize).

In the event of a player referirng to a card index I'd investigate just what information they're retrieving. If all they are retrieving is card text I'd simply ask them to put away the device. While I understand the thought pattern that this could be considered outside notes, card text is public information. The same information can be attained by asking a judge for it. For that reason, I don't see this as an infraction that would mandate a disqualification.

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM L3
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1406076:

okay, i'm waiting in suspense for alex's wise words :)

all who talk abut him possibly lying / hiding etc : that would clearly be covered by other infractions with penalties in their own right. the assumption in this situation is that he was openly using previous notes, and admitting to do so if possibly questioned afterwards.

@ robert : i didn't want to point out he was misrepresenting the gamestate but the policies instead and doing it intentionally. possibly not knowing that it was illegal won't save you from the consequences, as in real life.

We have no information that would leave me to believe he was misrepresenting the policies.  As judges, we must assume all violations of policy / rules are unintentional unless there is evidence to the contrary.  In UDE games, no knowledge of the rules can be a defense.  It's up to the judge or judges doing the investigation to determine whether or not the player is telling the truth.  Otherwise, every single problem that results in a net gain for a player would result in a DQ (since we would be assuming the player should know better).

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Lvl 3 Yugioh Rules Knowledge
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Lvl 1 Tournament Organizer, Specialist, Vs RK, WoW TCG RK, WoW Minis RK

768006:

In UDE games, no knowledge of the rules can be a defense.  It's up to the judge or judges doing the investigation to determine whether or not the player is telling the truth.  Otherwise, every single problem that results in a net gain for a player would result in a DQ (since we would be assuming the player should know better).

I disagree with this statement. There have been cases of collusion by people that did not know it was against the rules. I was witness to one directly, they were discussing it openly in front of me and when asked about it they explained what they were discussing. The HJ of that event ruled it as cheating and DQ'd them. I feel that ignorance of the rules should not be a defense.

We can assume the infraction was unintentional and apply the appropriate penalty. This does not mean that ignorance of the rules or policies should allow us to change the penalty for that infraction. Just because they don't know they are supposed to be in their seat in 3 minutes does not mean we should not issue the game loss for tardiness.

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