Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

Mind games are very useful in Yu-Gi-Oh (or other games).  For instance, annoying your opponent in certain ways with your moves or via taunting may cause him to misplay and give you an advantage.

I have no cards in my hand or on my side of the field, and my opponent attacks me with Yata-Garasu.  I am now locked and cannot draw a card as long as my opponent is able to Summon Yata every turn and attack.  So, if I decide to play out my empty handed turns by briefly checking the Graveyards, anouncing every Game Phase, passing over Priority during each notable timing, and asking always if I may procede to the next Game Phase in order to bait my opponent into not summoning Yata for a turn, is this legal?  My intent is CLEARLY not to stall for time (given, for one thing, that I am probably going to be at a disadvantage in overtime since I am losing the current game).  My intent is to attempt to make my opponent impatient, so that he will perhaps Summon something other than Yata and "give me a turn" in order to defeat me more quickly, attacking with two monsters every turn instead of one.

Is this a legal play, or is this cheating?  I am not stalling by checking Graveyards for unreasonable amounts of time, but this seems an "iffy" move in terms of other conduct rules.

Personally, I'd say you're pushing it.

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Lvl-1
Player Management Lvl-1
Tournament Organization Lvl-1
Bandai Naruto Meijin
Bandai DBZ meijin
Pokemon Tournament Organizer

I would not do this at all you will draw too much attention to yourself. You may also get some unsporting conduct penalties if you keep displaying this behavior.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Garren

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LvL 1 Yugioh Rules
LvL 1 Player Management
I work at Walts Cards in Dundalk, Maryland

This is the very definition of stalling

In the scenerio you described, with no cards and no available plays, I would actually call that cheating (stalling with the intent of running the game into time) and would DQ you, without a slow play warning first.

If there were some available play (such as a DD Crow in hand), I'd warn you for slow play but wouldnt hesitate to advance it to a DQ if you continued to do this

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Player Management 1
Tournament Organizer 1
Demo Team Certification 1
Yu-Gi-Oh! Rules Test 1

But, he specifically said his intention was not to push the game into time, but to make his opponent misplay. A player has every right to play out any game regardless of the game state, and playing out the game means going through every phase of the turn every time (here he's just communicating to his opponent those phases) and it might involve double checking what's in graveyards if he's curious about anything his opponent might be able to do with the graveyards. Mind tricks, like bluffing cards in your hand, are perfectly legal.

With that said, however, this sort of tactic does look very shady and is definately pushing the bounds of Unsporting Conduct (though not for Slow Play/Stalling) and would definately attract the attention of any judge that notices it.

Granted, if you're taking a long time (more than a couple seconds to look through the graveyard or move through the phases of the turn), you're going to run into Slow Play penalties, and potentially a DQ for Stalling.

(Also something to think about regarding the Yata-lock scenario: if Yata is the only monster the the opponent controls, and the OP is sitting pretty high on life points, he could keep playing the game in hopes that his opponent decks before winning the game, or that his opponent will play another monster first to avoid deck-out and let him draw the top card of his deck, which are both reasonable ways to try to win the game.)

Though he's stating the intention isn't to stall out the round, I think many people, including his opponenet would feel that's what he's doing, regardless of what he says he's doing. I can say I didn't but 3 copies of a limited card in my deck intentionally, but does that change the fact that it's still an illegal deck? Not really.

Personally, to me it would all come down to what moves the player being yata-locked had. He's stated he has no cards in hand, and I'd assume none on field, therefore if he wanted to continue the game out, fine, but I'd be asking, "If you can't play anything, why do you need to check your/his graveyard? With no possible moves each turn, I'd definitely see the graveyard checking as stalling, even if done quickly.

As for announcing phases, if he did it quickly, maybe, even then, say it takes 5 seconds to state each phase, there's 6 phases, that equals 30 seconds per turn, that to me seems clearly done to burn through the clock, add onto that maybe 10 seconds or so to check the graveyard. That's 40 seconds for a turn that has no available moves. There's no way you're going to be able to convince me that he's not doing it to stall out the clock.

(given, for one thing, that I am probably going to be at a disadvantage in overtime since I am losing the current game)

Personally, I'd call BS on that. The only time I've ever seen someone make that type of argument is when they know they're doing something wrong, and don't want to get busted. Besides, what's the game count? If he won the first, and this is the 2nd game, okay he loses it. So now they go to 3rd game, odds are, he's stalling out the 2nd game because he knows his deck holds advantage in a sudden death round.

Don't take this the wrong way TC, but all this is sounding like is a loophole hunt.

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Lvl-1
Player Management Lvl-1
Tournament Organization Lvl-1
Bandai Naruto Meijin
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Pokemon Tournament Organizer

1733232:

Though he's stating the intention isn't to stall out the round, I think many people, including his opponenet would feel that's what he's doing, regardless of what he says he's doing. I can say I didn't but 3 copies of a limited card in my deck intentionally, but does that change the fact that it's still an illegal deck? Not really.

Personally, to me it would all come down to what moves the player being yata-locked had. He's stated he has no cards in hand, and I'd assume none on field, therefore if he wanted to continue the game out, fine, but I'd be asking, "If you can't play anything, why do you need to check your/his graveyard? With no possible moves each turn, I'd definitely see the graveyard checking as stalling, even if done quickly.

As for announcing phases, if he did it quickly, maybe, even then, say it takes 5 seconds to state each phase, there's 6 phases, that equals 30 seconds per turn, that to me seems clearly done to burn through the clock, add onto that maybe 10 seconds or so to check the graveyard. That's 40 seconds for a turn that has no available moves. There's no way you're going to be able to convince me that he's not doing it to stall out the clock.

(given, for one thing, that I am probably going to be at a disadvantage in overtime since I am losing the current game)

Personally, I'd call BS on that. The only time I've ever seen someone make that type of argument is when they know they're doing something wrong, and don't want to get busted. Besides, what's the game count? If he won the first, and this is the 2nd game, okay he loses it. So now they go to 3rd game, odds are, he's stalling out the 2nd game because he knows his deck holds advantage in a sudden death round.

Don't take this the wrong way TC, but all this is sounding like is a loophole hunt.

I absolutely agree that the call depends on the situation/players involved in this case (do you think they're trying to stall and just using the turns as an excuse to get away with it?, how much time is left in the round?, what game are the players on?, etc.). I interepreted the OP, and his question, to be of sincere intent. Trying to make your opponent misplay by bluffing (or other mind tricks, for that matter) is legal, and I think the intent of his question was to ask if he would be allowed to do it. As long as his play isn't threatening the integrity of the match (like stalling to get to time would), it's legal.

The biggest issue I'd have with the situation is the repetative checking of the graveyards, which seems, especially in this case, like slow play/stalling. I'd probably issue a warning and ask the player not to check the graveyards repetatively and to speed up the pace of the game a bit. After that, though, I don't think there's much you can do about a player wanting to go through each step of the turn one at a time (unless you're convinced they're trying to stall; like I said, in this case I was answering the OPs "is it legal" question; the deciding factor here between a warning and a DQ is intent, so it comes down to the players and the situation for the most part).

Lol, I really cannot see why I should have to convince you of my intentions HERE.  I was actually asking an honest question, but when I thought of the scenario (Yata lock + opponent's lack of patience = misplay?) I knew it sounded a LOT like stalling.

The "probably losing" was just icing, as it indeed is not always true, as pointed out.  I really can't think of a possible way to convince a judge of my intent in such a situation though.  Now that I got everyone's response, I would have to agree that the Graveyard issue would have to be dropped from the strategy.

1838453:

Lol, I really cannot see why I should have to convince you of my intentions HERE.  I was actually asking an honest question, but when I thought of the scenario (Yata lock + opponent's lack of patience = misplay?) I knew it sounded a LOT like stalling.

The "probably losing" was just icing, as it indeed is not always true, as pointed out.  I really can't think of a possible way to convince a judge of my intent in such a situation though.  Now that I got everyone's response, I would have to agree that the Graveyard issue would have to be dropped from the strategy.

This post makes me even more certain that you're here just trying to find loopholes for use in a tournament situation. No offense, but if you have to actually tell me your intention isn't to stall, that makes me question your actions, be it you specifically or someone else, even more. So far it seems like a case of "how far can I push stalling before I get in trouble?" The answer, at least in my opinion, is that if there's even a hint of stalling, you're getting called on it, whether that's your alledged "intention" or not.

1838453:

I would have to agree that the Graveyard issue would have to be dropped from the strategy.

Even further proof that you're just looking for loopholes. Deny it all you want, but you just busted yourself right here. Sorry buddy, but this forum is for people who need help understanding what to do in certain situations, not to find loopholes in the policies. If you want to know what happens, go ahead and try it in a tournament, see what happens. I know if it were mine, you wouldn't be lasting long.

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Lvl-1
Player Management Lvl-1
Tournament Organization Lvl-1
Bandai Naruto Meijin
Bandai DBZ meijin
Pokemon Tournament Organizer

Suppose you have absolutely NO legal moves to make on your turn. All your opponent has to say is "I have no moves to make in any of your phases". You are then finished with your turn.

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Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Level 3
Player Management Level 2

We've discussed slow play and the fact few judges issue this warning, and penalty in previous threads. It really does matter how (the manner in which) the players conduct their game. It also is something that judges should look for but that they not go on "witch hunts" to find.

There's quite a few situations where the players will stall, but they'll hide the stall behind a "legitimate strategy"... having a few cards in hand and "bluffing" their opponent into thinking they have a real move that may be taken. I've seen judges torn between calling the stall and leaving the players be and "not interfering" with the game state.

The tip that changes the balance for me has been if a player raises his/her hand and says something like, "Judge, I think my opponent is stalling". Maybe we need to be more proactive.

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Ken Maness
Pflugerville, Tx
RK 2 YGO, PM2, Specialist 2, TO 1

I really don't see why I would ask a dishonest question here.  It's not like I can tell a judge "the UDE forum people said I could" and get a different response from the judge.  Let's pretend, in order to get to the actual question, that this is an untimed match in a tournament.  Slow playing is still not allowed, but I cannot gain any advantage by stalling.  What would be ruled in this case if I am Yata locked and would like the opponent to misplay, so I announce all phases, ask priority questions, etc.

I would view your actions at the very least as slow play, if you continues to do it, I would either issue another slow play warning and would consider DQ for Stalling. Even if you are not stalling you are still taking far to long to effectively do nothing.

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Chad Daniel
PM 3
WoW 3
Vs 3

I would ask the player using Yata how many times they wish to repeat the loop seeing as the opponent has no cards in hand and nothing to respond with. Once the turn player states how many times they wish to repeat the loop and the totals in damage to the opposing player are calculated, play can proceed from that point. (If needed)

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM L3
TO L1
Specialist L1

366390:

I would ask the player using Yata how many times they wish to repeat the loop seeing as the opponent has no cards in hand and nothing to respond with. Once the turn player states how many times they wish to repeat the loop and the totals in damage to the opposing player are calculated, play can proceed from that point. (If needed)

I think this is the most appropriate approach to this kind of situation.  Also, I think it's appropriate for this to be discussed as a loophole situation so that we know how to deal with it when/if a similar situation comes up during a sanctioned event.  A retired judge had told me that the best way to deal with player management issues is to know all the loopholes players can intentionally take so you know what to look out for.

And I personally need to work on my PM habits, so this is a good topic for us lower-leveled PM certs :).

Now, as for the situation at hand and assuming John's approach isn't taken, I honestly don't see anything wrong with announcing each phase of game play sans the battle phase and main phase 2 for obvious reasons.  Yes, it could be construed as unsportmanlike conduct, but then again we're talking about a Yata-lock which implies Traditional Format, which in turn implies a casual setting (I can't think of an instance where there's been a sanctioned traditional tournament outside of a local card shop's event).  Speaking as a spectator instead of a judge, I'd honestly probably laugh lol.

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JD DeKeyzer
-YGO R&K LV2
-PM LV1
-TO LV1
-inventor of the world's first Duel System (Duel Terminal's a cheap knock-off of this, I swear)