Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

Hello,

at German nationals I was asked the following:

A player put a dice on his deck to prevent himself from drawing a card before discarding for Infernal. His opponent wanted to know if this is allowed. I came to the conclusion that this should be allowed:

-It helps the player with their responsibility to "Know and follow the most current and applicable TCG rules and UDE tournament policies."

-While this is not what we think about first when we hear something about notes, I think it falls under the note taking points: "During play, players may take any notes they wish regarding the game in progress and may refer to those notes as they wish."

After the event another judge with a MTG background approached me that for that game the usage of such things is not allowed because it takes away responsibility from the players.

So, what's up? Are our players allowed to do such a thing or are the not allowed?

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WoW Rules Knowledge Level 2
UDE Player Management Level 2

I would agree that it falls under keeping notes.  I don't really have any experience with Magic, but from what I understand if a player forgets a benificial effect the other player is not required to remind them and that effect is simply skipped over.  In WoW it is both player's responsibility to maintain a legal game state.

If I were faced with the non-Infernal player complaining about the reminder I would probably give them the option of letting the Infernal player keep using their reminder, or making the non-Infernal player 100% responsible for reminding the Infernal player of Infernal's triggered effect before they draw each turn.

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Andy Danielson
World of Warcraft Rules Knowledge level 1
Player Management level 1

This same situation comes up in Yugioh as well.  I like to turn my Destiny Hero-Dasher or Treeborn Frog perpendicular in my graveyard.  I've had to stop because it has been ruled that graveyards must strictly be in a neat pile.  Of course, these are both optional effects and therefore my opponent has no obligation to remind me of them.

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LV1 Yugioh Rules
LV1 Player Management

"Flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." -Douglas Adams

My experiences are with Yu-Gi-Oh. At several premier events (Regionals & Nationals) we have been told we may NOT use a die on top of the deck as a reminder (Ex for Reckless Greed), and that it is both players responsibility to remember.

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK Lv1
Specialist Lv1
PM Lv 1
TO Lv1

In WoW it is both player's responsibility to maintain a legal game state.

That is true, but you are misapplying that philosophy.

In WoW, you are allowed to use tokens to remind you of certain actions like infernal. I have seen players put a small object on top of their deck to remind them to discard for Infernal before drawing. This is perfectly acceptable and the opponent has no room to complain.

On the other hand, the opponent is is no way required to remind the player of Infernal. If a player with a default action forgets to make the choice, the default action is assumed and the game goes on. The opponent does NOT have to remind the player to make a specific choice. You are applying a philosophy that was used in Vs. System, but was never used in WoW.

If there is no default action (like in Searing Totem) the opponent is required to remind the player to make a choice. The way UDE handels it in WoW is very similer to that of MtG.

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Chad Daniel
PM 3
WoW 3
Vs 3

My experiences are with Yu-Gi-Oh. At several premier events (Regionals & Nationals) we have been told we may NOT use a die on top of the deck as a reminder (Ex for Reckless Greed), and that it is both players responsibility to remember.

I was fairly certain that this was allowable in Yu-Gi-Oh as well, but since I do not judge that game, I am not for certain. Hopefully one of the Yu-Gi-Oh level 3's will chime in.

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Chad Daniel
PM 3
WoW 3
Vs 3

If we can deduct from the notes section of the tournament policy that you may use reminders in WoW, then players should also be allowed to do this in YGO.

There is no more a special policy regarding notes inside the special appendix for a single game, the only thing taking care of this is the Tournament Policy.

If this is deducted from something else, there could of course be differences.

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WoW Rules Knowledge Level 2
UDE Player Management Level 2

1729287:

My experiences are with Yu-Gi-Oh. At several premier events (Regionals & Nationals) we have been told we may NOT use a die on top of the deck as a reminder (Ex for Reckless Greed), and that it is both players responsibility to remember.

 

The LV2 & LV3  judges at our YGO Regionals and Sneak Previews allow the use of a dice on top of the deck to keep track of draw issues from cards like Reckless Greed where you draw 2 cards and skip your next 2 draw phases.  They agree it is another part of note taking and that the die can be next to the deck or on top of it.

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YGO Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 1
TO lvl 1
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That which does not kill me, just royally pisses me off!

it has been a while since I've judged YGO but I believe that the word we had was mandatory effects could have a reminder (but not turning cards sideways in the graveyard) and optional effects could not have a reminder.

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WoW RK2
VS RK2
YGO RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

I admit I haven’t heard the “no dice on top of the deck or graveyard” speech in the players meeting for at least 6 months. Maybe this changed once note taking became allowed.

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK Lv1
Specialist Lv1
PM Lv 1
TO Lv1

The Yugioh Tournament Policy document, the Yugioh FAQ, nor the Official Yugioh Rulebook address the issue of markers for card effects. Alex Charsky the UDE Judge Manager is making an effort to unify UDE distributed games whenever possible, with that in mind please see the following thread for additional discussion....

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/COMMUNITY/forums/1/926913/ShowThread.aspx

If you don't want the whole discussion and wish to cut to the Alex's comments.....

<Quote Alex Charsky>

Here is the official answer to the treeborn frog question.

Remembering optional trigger effects is part of skill testing within the game. Players may not use visual aids to remind them.

Remembering mandatory trigger effects (such as Sacred phoenix) is the responsibility of both players, so players are allowed to use visual aids (such as turning the card sideways) and even notes to remind them of its effect.

 

As a bonus, here's the official answer to the removed from play zone question.

Please don't mix the removed from play zone with the graveyard zone. It's just too easy to mess up the game by having those cards in the same pile. Please start a new pile for the removed from play zone. I realize that occasionally there is very little space for players to operate in. In those cases, if players truly can't figure out a effective space to place their removed from play pile, then they should call for a judge to help them.

Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck

 

 

Writing notes and using visual aids (turning card sideways, dropping dice on it) to remind players of optional triggers are two different things. This still applies. Now, however, you are able to write frog on your score pad, if you think that that would help you to remember the optional trigger. 

Notice that it's acceptable to use visual aids to remember mandatory triggers.

Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM L3
TO L1
Specialist L1

The change regarding notes happened in the April 2008 update of the tournament policy.

I am not sure that we can base the solution to this situation on an older post.

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WoW Rules Knowledge Level 2
UDE Player Management Level 2

1103221:

The change regarding notes happened in the April 2008 update of the tournament policy.

I am not sure that we can base the solution to this situation on an older post.

I would think that using visual reminders for mandatory effects would be even more acceptable with the acceptance of note taking. I'm sure Alex Charsky will correct me if I'm mistaken in my thought pattern.

What we're trying to do is avoid unrepairable game states, anything we can do to help avoid such a situation adds to the enjoyment of the tournament, that should always be our goal.

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Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM L3
TO L1
Specialist L1

My post is still correct. Players should be allowed to track mandatory effects (as long as the method is not overly obnoxious). It's still player's responsibility to track optional effects.

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Alex Charsky
Judge Manager
Upper Deck